Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Baker, Sue (O2026.1) |
| Interviewee | Sue Baker (SB) |
| Interviewer | Mark Green (MG) |
| Date | 10/03/2026 |
| Transcriber by | Mark Green (using Otter.AI for initial transcript) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording No: O 2026.1
Interviewees: Sue Baker (SB)
Date: 10th March 2026
Venue: At her home in Benington
Interviewers: Mark Green (MG)
Transcriber: Mark Green (using Otter.AI for initial transcript)
[…] unclear/untranscribed material, notes
MG: Right. Okay, so this is Mark Green, and it's Tuesday, the 10th of March 2026, I'm with Sue Baker at her home in Benington, and it's an interview which will cover her childhood growing up in Hertford, and her involvement subsequently with the Panshanger stables and with the community that exists long after the stables itself has closed down. So, Sue, I think you were born in Hertford.
SB: I was, yes, I was born in Hertford. I was born in what is was called the Grammar School [now Richard Hale] Lodge, which is still there, red house, on it's on Pegs Lane. And at the time when I was born in it, it was halfway up a drive, because the boys grammar school, as it was called then, had a long drive up to it, and Pegs Lane was along the bottom, and the drive went up and the house was halfway up. But of course, they altered all that when they built the road, took a lot of it down, but the house is still there that I was born in.
MG: And does that sort of indicate that your parents were involved in the school?
SB: No, my grandparents were involved in, because I lived, we lived with my grandparents [Grandfather was the caretaker and instructor of cadets. Grandmother is Win North (transcript O2002.12)]. My father was still waiting to be demobbed. He was in Belgium waiting to be demobbed because I was born in 1946 so the war was over, but only just. And my mother, obviously, moved in was with her own parents. Stayed with her parents all through the war. She stayed with her parents. And then I would say, I was born 1946 my father didn't see me till I was a few weeks old. So that was why we lived there.
And we lived there till I was four. And then my parents because, of course, there was nowhere to live. There was no houses because of the war. You had to wait while they built them. And my father come home, and the houses at the bottom of Gallows Hill, which we always called the green tiled houses, because they have green tiles, obviously. And they were £200 pound to buy. And my father said, 'Oh, can't afford it'. And then when they got their house, which was up Burleigh Road, which is a road off of Ware Road, my mother said to him, what will we do if the rent is 30 bob, which is the equivalent of one pound 50 now, and it was, and it was quite a lot of money, as my father probably only earning about a fiver a week. So, but that was where we went from. From The Lodge, I lived up Burleigh Road, say, till once I was four, we moved up there. So we had to wait that long. They had to wait that long to get a house.
MG And how long were you at Burleigh Road for?
SB: Oh, till I was 13. And then my mother wasn't happy. My father didn't like that end of the town, because he'd always lived up the other end of the town. So we moved to Sele Farm we lived there till I married.
MG Was that before it was developed or after?
SB: Oh, yes, way before. It was very small when we moved there, yes, half of it, not less than half of it wasn't built. It just was built all around us, if you like. Obviously, it's a big estate now. And as I said, not very big when we moved then, not half the shops that there were, I think there was a grocery shop.
MG: It must have been fascinating to watch it being developed.
SB: Well as a child, yes. And you used to have to get off the bus sort of halfway up Windsor Drive, which goes all the way up Windsor Drive now, and walk the rest of it, and a lot of it, lot of the time, you played in the rubble, in the building site that was that was being built. So, yeah, I suppose I was a child still old enough, or young enough, should I say, to play in the street, and that's what you did. But obviously it's
MG: were there lots of kids playing?
SB: Yeah, we was all much the same sort of age. I suppose. I suppose everybody was much the same, getting their houses and the children, having their children and, yeah, I suppose that's it. I moved in next door to a girl I came very friendly with. Was only a couple of years age difference. The other side was a girl, another couple of age, couple of years, age difference. So, yeah, so where we lived, it was in a square, and we were all played out in this square, which, of course, was quite safe then, because there was no cars. I mean, a car came, you went, oh, you know, it's a car. [laughs] Yeah, the same. When we lived up Burleigh Road, there was only two vehicles went up there. There's one gentleman that had a car and the other one was a van that the man used for work, and otherwise there was no cars in in housing estates or places like that. So yeah, that was obviously different to today, where everything is car minded, isn't it? And parking and everything.
MG: It's a very different age altogether ...
SB: Absolutely, of course it is.
MG: So where were you going to school? Sele School or...
SB: No, I never went to Sele School. I was too old by the time that got built. Yeah, I think I'd left and married by the time that was built. My first school was Faudel-Phillips, which is, I think, merged now with Abel Smith, but it was just the infant school. It's at the back of St John's Hall. A little school. That was my infants school. And then you went up to Abel Smith School, which was only sort of up the alleys, as we called them. You walked up there, obviously, and then I left there. Wasn't happy there, and my mother wasn't happy with me there. So I then went to Morgan's Walk, which was a brand-new school, and that's at the top of Queens Road. You go up Pegs Lane, it’s up there.
MG: Yes. It's hard to describe, top of Queens Road...walk through…
SB: That's right, yeah.
SB: Yes. And, of course, again, that wasn't very big. When I went there was brand new, all glass, which, you know was, was really new and, oh, modern. And a lovely school, very happy there. Stayed there till, obviously, I was 11. And then I went to, well, it's now, what do they call Simon Balle, they call it now, but it was called Balls Park when I went there in Hertford Secondary School, and that's where I finished. My schooling was there. So…
MG: Why were you unhappy at Abel Smith?
SB: Do you know I can't remember, [laughter] but I remember Mother said you're not going back. Those days, you did what your mother told you, didn't you. So, I didn't go back, but I wasn't happy there. I don't really remember why, but it was a very old school, not that that matters. You don't notice those sort of things as a child, but you do when you then go on to Morgan's Walk School, when you can sit in the classroom and look out the windows, and you go to the Abel Smith, you can't see out the windows because they're so high up. The heating is the big old radiators that if you sit next to them, you burn yourself. But if you sit in the middle of the classroom you don’t get heat at all, same old sort of thing, maybe it was things like that, I don't know, but I think my mother was quite a feisty lady, and she may have fell out with one of the teachers about something. So, I was taken away from them, went to Morgan's Walk but, but I was very happy at Morgan's Walk. Loved it. Lovely school, different environment altogether, really.
MG: I'm kind of thinking that you must have done, presumed that you're walking to school?
SB: Oh yes, most of the time, um, when I lived at Burleigh Road, we had a bus, which was tuppence to get on the bus, which is, I don't know much that is in money today, but it's tuppence in old money to get on the bus. And you used to get off outside what is now Marks and Spencer's food shop, but it's think there was houses, I think there then, can't remember, but there was Murphy's, which was a electrical shop. And you got off the bus there, and then you walked up the alleys to the schools, to Faudel-Phillips or to Abel Smith. You walked up, I presume the alleys are still there, obviously. And then when you came home at night, you come down the alleys. And then you had the man saw you across the road with the, you know...
MG: but it is still a walk up from the alleys up Morgan's Walk?
SB: Yes, you just walked. Yes, that's what you did. Yeah, you didn't think anything of it. That is what you did. You've got the bus as far as you could, if you could bus, if not, you just walked. I used to walk home to Sele Farm when I was obviously a teenager, but then it was quite safe. I mean, you know, we never had any worries about used to walk over the twitchel path, which is at the back of Fordwich Rise, and that sort of area very quiet. [‘twitchel’ is the term for a narrow alleyway or cut-through]. Now, I'm not sure I would feel safe with a child and like the age I was walking across there. Now I don't know. I mean, I don't have that problem. Obviously, my children aren't that young, but I never had that problem when they were younger. But now things are different, aren't they? And not sure you would let them walk to school over there, but I did. So…
MG: you went to Simon Balle. Was that the ..the end of your school?
SB: Yes, that was the end of it. Yes.
MG: Then what did you do?
SB: Then I went for ...Oh, again, I wasn't happy. Went to work in Dunn's shoe shop, which isn't there anymore. It was at one of the shoe shops in Fore Street in Hertford. It was very boring and but when you left school in those days when I was 15 and you wanted to get a job, you had to get a job. My parents couldn't keep me for nothing, not that they took loads of money off me, but of course, they had to feed me, clothe me, whatever up till that point. So yeah, you just got a job. You didn't take a year out or, you know, that wasn't the sort of thing you did. So. So yes, I went to Dunn's the shoe shop, and I wasn't happy. It was very boring, not what it was their fault, but it was for a young girl selling shoes which people only bought on Saturdays, who didn't do much all the week, that sort of thing.
MG: How did you do the the fitting of the shoes?
SB: Yes [laughs] we've talked about that before we used to have ...um... a radiation ...er... You know what I'm saying, don't you? Yeah, great, big thing that stood like a, I don't know what, a massive piece of furniture, and you shoved your feet under there. And every time new shoes came in, you tried them all on and shoved your feet under there, the X-ray thing. So how my feet are still in one piece I don't know, but all the children put your feet under there, because you could see their bones and whether they were getting crushed or not in a new shoe. Yeah, how ridiculous was that, well obviously is later on in life, they realised that was dangerous, so they took them all out. But I think every shoe shop had one. People used to think it was fun. You know, you stood up, stood up, you had to get up a step. And you looked down this vision thing, and there was your feet or the bones of you. And you did it all the time. Because, of course, you gotta remember, in those days, it was winklepickers for boys and girls, really. And the higher the heel, the better, and the more the point the better. So, of course, I used to try on all the winklepickers and shove them in this radiation thing. So we were getting zapped all the time, and so were all the children that the mothers brought in. I'll put her in there, you know, she'll have a look at her at her feet. [Laughs]. Oh God, think of it. But we survived it. So there you go. But yes, that's how we fitted the shoes [laughs]
MG: there isn't a whole generation of Hertfordians walking around on stumps....
SB: Obviously didn't do us that much harm, did it? But, yeah, but you did it at least once a day. But you probably, you know, when a new load of, batch of shoes came in, you probably did it about six times. Just look at these... Terrible, terrible. But as I say, we all survived. It obviously still got our feet, so it couldn't have done us any harm, I dunno...yes, but I didn't, I'd say I was a bit bored there. I think I only stayed five or six months. It was a start, and it was a job. And I think I earnt, three pounds, I'm gonna say, three pounds, which isn't three pounds of today's money. Three pounds a lot less. It wasn't good money, even in those days, it wasn't brilliant money. And then I went to Woolworths. They were looking for in those days, you see, you could walk out of any job and walk in another one. There was no question of you not getting a job. You just walk from one place to another, see if they wanted anybody you asked, or there was a notice on the doors or whatever. And my mother had worked for Woolworths before the war, when it first opened in Hertford, and they were a good company to work for, um, so I went in there, spoke to the manager. He took me on, like start next week, and I got four pound 50 to work there, which was quite a jump, when you think it was half as much again as I was earning.
MG: Is this the Maidenhead...?
SB: Yeah, the one in that was in Maidenhead Street. Yes, I went there. Loved it.
MG: What were you doing there?
SB: First of all, I worked on, it was Christmas time, and I worked on the Christmas decorations counter. And in those days, of course, if you came in, what you picked up, I put in the bag and I added it up in my head, you know, everything, whatever you bought or went in the bag, and then you said to the person, yes, one pound whatever. I rang it up in the till. It was that way. The tills weren't like they are....and when, if you gave me a £10 pound note, I counted the money back and if you'd spent four pounds, 5,6,7,8,9,10, it was so much easier, to be honest, it wasn't difficult. So I did that until after Christmas, and then I had a stationary department for a little while, and the manager obviously liked me, I think because he gave, I had a rise every six months, at least every six months, if not more. And then he asked me if I would go in the office. One of the girls was leaving. She was pregnant, and I worked in the office. Then I went into the office and worked there. Well, I worked for Woolworths for 12 years altogether, but I went there and then met my husband. And he got moved because in those days, Woolworths were very fussy about you mustn't work with people you know or relative or anything. And obviously he came to work there and wanted to marry me, but they moved him. Moved him to Slough.
So we got married anyway, so I then moved to Slough, and there was two stores in Slough, so I worked in one of the stores and he worked in the other. So that worked out, all right. We moved around quite a bit. Moved to Leigh-on-sea we lived there because we both worked in the Southend store. They'd got a little bit on, I was a freight clerk there, because they didn't need anybody in the office, but they needed a freight clerk, which was had my own little office in the stock room. And then also we moved to Loughton was the final move. And then I was pregnant with my daughter, so I left. Left the job anyway, but lovely company to work for, completely happy and more money than Marks and Spencers girls, Boots girls or anybody else. But people did tend to look down on you a bit because it was Woolworths. I don't know why, but they did, but they were totally wrong, because we, as I say, far more money than the Boots girls or the Marks & Spencers girls and yeah, good company to work for, very solid. Always got two weeks bonus after Christmas. You worked hard at Christmas, and you did stock taking at Christmas, but you got paid really well for it, so much so that I could give my mum and dad money. So yeah. So as I say, the only reason I left was because I had my daughter and well, that was it. That was once I'd had her, and then my son a bit later. Then obviously I didn't work anymore for 25 years, and then come back to Hertford, and my husband and I divorced, and I came back and took over Panshanger. So that was about my life in a nutshell, really shortened version.
MG: So how many children do you have?
SB: Two. I have a son and a daughter?
MG: Yeah, ok, so what we haven't mentioned yet is horses
SB: [laughs] big part of my life
MG: So big part.,, big part of your life.
SB: Forever, yes.
MG: We're sitting in your front room, and there are pictures of horses on the walls. There are, um, pottery horses, etc. This is clearly a substantial part of your life. When did you first?
SB: I can't remember when I didn't. I can't remember when I didn't want to ride a horse, to be honest. My parents couldn't afford to buy me a horse, or they couldn't afford to pay for me to have lessons, either in those days, it was just something you couldn't do. And when I started earning my own money, which must have been when I first went to Dunns shoe shop, that was the first thing I did was booked to go for riding lessons. So I was 16 before I learned to ride.
MG: And that was at Panshanger?
SB: Yes, yes. Always at Panshanger, yeah. And then I went to Panshanger. Miss Midd was running it then. And I used to bike there because I didn't have a car. Well, couldn't drive anywhere at 16. But I used to bike there, which wasn't far, it wasn't too bad. But that was all along the B1000, which you wouldn't do it now without being very careful. Yeah. So I went there from the age of 16, every week. It was my my dream, my absolute everything. There was nothing else I wanted more than to be with horses. And that was what I did. I obviously got in with the stables. I then used to go, even when I'd had after I'd had the children, I still used to go. My mother used to look after them when they were babies. And I used to go at least once a week. And then I got so I could help. And I used to help. And obviously knew the whole area, the rides. I knew everything. I knew all the ponies.
And then I was asked if I would like to take it over. There was, was a lady that took it over after Miss Midd. Miss Midd was the stalwart of anything Pony Club, Panshanger, and whatever she'd come there from, oh, 1954 56 something like that. She was there. I think she went there from Essendon. So she was there, always there, and that was she was there in the background. But she'd had a mother was still alive at 90 something, and her brother was not a well man. So she decided to give it up. And she gave it to a lady called Marion who lived in London, so she couldn't do it seriously, shall I say? She only used to come down at weekends. She had two children as well, and then she just asked me one day if I wanted to take it over, because at that time, it was ideal for me, because my husband and, I was splitting up. We had a house to sell in Billericay, and it was absolutely perfect for me, because obviously it was somewhere to live, and the children were tiny. My children were four and two when we moved there, I bought the lease from her, and that was it, and I stayed.
Well, I still would have been there, probably if I hadn't been for the Redlands as it was at the time. I'm not saying that they did anything wrong. They didn't. They were very good to me, actually. But they obviously only gave me a 10 year business lease. So after the 10 years and they decided they wanted to do the work on it, and I had to get out, which was a shame. But as I say, it wasn't really their fault. That's why they brought the estate for was to, you know, take out the sand and gravel. But of course, they've sold it on again and again since then. [Redland Aggregates took over ownership of the Panshanger estate to extract sand and gravel. They later sold the estate to Lafarge Tarmac]. But yes, there's still an attachment there [to Panshanger]. You can go there and walk now, obviously that's entirely different. We weren't allowed to ride around. A lot of people thought we were but we weren't allowed to ride around the estate at all. It was just you rode up the drive and there was the stables, and that was so I ran them for 10 years. Absolutely loved it.
MG: So the estate at that time wasn't open to the public.
SB: Oh no,
MG: it wasn't open to the stables.
SB: Only if you were going to ride. You came to me and you you just parked outside the stables, as you can now, and you rode, and then you went home. You didn't wander off around the estate, no, because at that time, of course, there was a gamekeeper, and pheasants were reared there. So that was a basis of a lot of reason why people weren't allowed. It was all private. I mean, obviously Redlands let the pheasants be reared there and looked after there, because they have to have runs and all sorts of things. And it was an ideal spot, because people just didn't wander in, you know, like they could, but there's always been a footpath through it. One started from where it more or less where it starts now was a footpath and a bridle path.
And the strange thing about the bridle path was it went from what is Thieves Lane, and you went through the wooded bit, which you still can do, and you rode through the woods. And then we used to ride across the field and onto the B1000. And we did that for many years, all the years I rode there, apart from the last couple. And then we also was told that there's not a bridle path across that bit of field. Why? How bridle path stopped there, so you had to turn around and go back from where you'd come, which is a bit weird. And I had a gentleman, came to visit me, and he'd had a letter he used to ride, not with me, way before my time. He was an elderly gentleman then, and he had a letter from Lord Desborough to say that, yes, he could ride across that field, and he actually brought me there to show me, but it wasn't a designated bridle path, so we had to stop going across there. And that was a start of obviously them shutting thing places off and that. But there was always a footpath through.
MG: So Redlands. What sort of company were they?
SB: Oh, they were, they were a good company. I think to me, I can only speak personally, obviously, when I first got there, the lady, I told you, I bought the lease, and she sold me the lease, and I got there with my removal lorry, removal men and the gentleman, I'm sorry, I can't remember his name, but he was a gentleman. And he came along and he said, What are you doing? I said, I'm moving in as I said, My children were four and two. And he said, but you haven't a lease. I said, I have a lease. I said, I bought it off of Marion. Anyway, he said, well, I'm sorry, but she can't just do that. So because that frightened me a bit, because I left my home I was living in you know, as I thought. Anyway, he said, it's not a problem. I'll sort it out for you. And he did. He gave me another 10 year lease, as I said. So he was very good when I had to get out again my children, obviously, was like young teenagers. I had nowhere to go, and I couldn't afford to buy a house, and the council wouldn't rehouse me until I'd got put out of Panshanger. It's a law thing that they couldn't rehouse me because I hadn't got they hadn't given me a repossession order, and they couldn't give me a repossession order until my children were, Oh, was the right to do anyway? He came along again, the gentleman, I didn't pay any more rent, and I didn't pay any council tax, which had come in by that time, and they obviously gave me a possession order. The bailiff came into my house, and he said, the only reason I don't put all your furniture out on there, because they're allowed to put it out on the road.
But of course, they couldn't there because there was no road, right? And he said, I can't put it out on the B1000, which was our nearest road. So that was a blessing in disguise. And Miss Midd was still living there at the time, and of course, she was amazing, as she always was, and she let me store. By this time, her mother had died, and she'd still got her brother, but her brother had, if you can imagine it, we lived around the top of the stables, and she just moved her brother up, left me her...a room, so I put everything that I possibly could...all my kids toys and everything I wanted that I could possibly keep, I put in there, and then I had to go in a hostel for not long, I suppose, six months at the most, which was in Stansted Abbots. Lovely house, big old house, big bay windows, beautiful place.
But the only thing was I had to get my children to school every every day. But it was fine. It wasn't as dreadful as people make it sound like we were in a hostel and because that's where I was put, and they had no house for me, whatever. And I say it wasn't dreadful, I made good friends in there and people, I suppose, because everybody was sort of in the same boat for different reasons. There was one parent mothers, mothers without husbands, and there was couples that had been put out for some reason or another, and people like me obviously put out of my home through no fault of my own. And eventually I got a house. I was housed in Sele Farm. So back to Sele Farm. By then, of course, it was a lot bigger. So that was where I went from there.
And then I used what did I do then? I suppose I worked. My children was at school, so I didn't, didn't work a lot. I think, I don't think I worked. I couldn't really, because they were still quite young. And then by the time my daughter got to the age where she could do a Saturday job, and so she must have been 15 16, sort of age, so obviously I didn't have to be at home with them. And she went to work in the Wimpy which was on the corner of [indistinct], which is now betting shop, the corner of Maidenhead Street. And she worked in there on a Sunday, I think. And she came home one day and she said, would I go and help them in the Wimpy bar for a couple of weeks? Because one of the guys, he hadn't broken his leg, but he'd done something, pulled ligaments or something. Couldn't stand on this leg for a while, so she said it would just be for a couple of weeks. So I went, and I stayed for about five years. Absolutely loved it, absolutely...time of my life. I worked for two Greeks and a Turk, and it was nothing but fun to be honest. Yeah, really enjoyed it, and I didn't, and I didn't have regular times. They just used to phone me up, can you come for two hours today? Or can you come all day tomorrow? You know, that sort of thing. So it suited me fine. It was, it was great.
MG: So it's like the original zero hours contract?
SB: Absolutely yes and yeah, because it was cash in hand, which I can say now, doesn't matter, does it? And I also my friend Sarah, who eventually ended up going back to the horses, but I met through horses anyway. But she her father bought her a horse and kept it with me, and she was one of my helping girls, but her father had a company, printing company, that had to have stuff delivered in London. So he asked me again, could you drive into London, big, great, big van thing and deliver this stuff? So I used to do that every so often. He would ring me up and say, "Can you come tomorrow?" And I used to drive off to all sorts of places in London and did that every so often. So that was just another thing, because the children were still at school, but they were old enough to be left, obviously. But it suited me, and it was perfect. So that was that. And then I met my now husband sometime after, I suppose I was on my own for about four years, where I'm home with the children, yeah. And then I met Roy. We got married in 1992, yeah, and we moved here in 1994
MG: Here being Benington.
SB: Yes, Benington, yeah. So that's brought us up to date. Really, I can go back a long way.
MG: We had a sort of initial discussion. You also worked with the Salisbury Hotel [Salisbury Arms Hotel, on Fore Street]?
SB: Oh yes, yes, I forgot about that. I did, yes. When I married Roy, yes, we lived in Hertford, of course, lived at Sele Road. He had a house there, and he'd lost his wife three years before. So we lived there, and I then went to work for the Salisbury. I worked for the Salisbury for six, again, I love my job. I was very lucky with my job. I just they say, If you love your job, you never go to work, you know. So, yeah, so I worked in the Salisbury.
MG: and you were cooking breakfasts.
SB: I was, yes. I didn't when I first started. I just wait, did waitressing for, I don't know, two years. I might have done it for two years. Might have done it for three. I worked for a couple called Joey and Tina, Irish couple, lovely people, and we had a job to get, because it was six o'clock start for breakfast. It didn't, they started serving at seven till nine. So a lot of the chefs didn't want to work at six o'clock in the morning. And he we'd been through several I mean, obviously I was wait doing the waitress in every morning, not weekends, Monday to Friday. And he was in the kitchen one day, Joey, and he said, I just cannot get anybody to cook breakfast. And I said, well, I could do it. So he said, could you? So I said, Yeah, I'd worked with enough chefs to see what they did. Yeah, I'll give it a go. So that was how that happened.
So I changed from being a waitress to cooking the breakfast. I absolutely loved it. I was key holder. I had to be there by six. I was all I'm never late. Never late. Anyway, I hate being late. So at that time, I had horses, so I used to get up at four o'clock in the morning. By this time, the horses were in Watton-at-Stone in farm there, and so I used to go down in my horsey clothes, feed about six horses, change their rugs, turn them all out. They were friends horses as well and then change standing on a little concrete floor in a stable somewhere and go in my chef's clothes. [laughs] I'm not sure what I smelt like, but nobody ever said, anyway, and cook breakfast and opened up at six o'clock. I was never late. Opened the door for everybody else that was coming in for six o'clock, waitresses and whatever...
MG: you can certainly lay claim to being a farm fresh breakfast,
SB: [Indistinct] whatever. [laughs]. But nobody ever said, oh, you smell horsey. I obviously didn't, I don't know. I suppose it was the complete change of clothes. And obviously didn't go in me boots. So, yeah, so I worked in the Salisbury...um... 16 years I think it was...um loved it. I did enjoy I got to be, was I six? I must have been 60, was I 60 or 65 I think I was 65 because I said to Sharon, who was my boss. I said, I think I better leave before you tell me I've got to but the reason I left was my mother was 90 something by then, and not that she was any trouble, don't get me wrong, but I did like to visit her every day, and I did her shopping and her washing and whatever needed to be done for her. I had a dog and I had a horse, and I felt that I was perhaps doing too much, so I decided to leave my job, and Roy was still working. So, you know, financially, we weren't that badly off, and so that was why I gave it up. Otherwise, again, I might still be there. Yes, I enjoyed it, but Sharon, my boss left anyway, soon afterwards and stuff. It's all changed in there now. So, yeah, that was another one of my jobs, the Salisbury, beautiful hotel. It was lovely. Nice people. Lots of nice people. I worked with nice chefs. I worked with good, nice girls. Nothing I could fault you know, enjoyed it. So, yeah, it was lovely then.
MG: So, Panshanger stables,
SB: Oh, yes.
MG: So I don't have a good sense, I never saw the place, never went there, and I don't have a good sense of how big it was, clearly, there was also living accommodation there.
SB: Yes, above, yes, above the stables.
MG: Describe the stables to me.
SB: Oh my goodness, most wonderful place on earth. And a lot of people will tell you that, I'm sure Sally did. If you spoke to Sally Pakes, she would have said the same.
[Sally Pakes, now Sally Newton was interviewed about the stables, together with Barbara Manning, in 2025. Transcript reference O 2025.4].
We were so happy there. Miss Midd made a wonderful environment. But when I lived there, I wanted that environment to carry on, and I think it did. I didn't allow radios in the stables because I didn't think they went with horses. And my girls were lovely. I had several lovely girls that came and helped. They could have a ride if they helped was how it worked, usually. And they all were very good. Used to come very early on a Saturday and a Sunday. And...
MG: How many horses were there?
SB: Well, at one time, I had 48 which was the most, I think, when I first got there, there was only about eight, seven or eight, I think that I inherited from Marion so, so to speak. But I did build up the business. Amazing how the business took off. I went there in the April on my own. I was doing stuff. People were coming for riding, like I had to make a list, because I'd got too many people that wanted to ride. And then people started bringing me liveries. Wanted to keep their horse with me, which was wonderful, of course, which is what I wanted, and to build the business up, but it took off so quickly it was almost unmanageable to start with, because I was mucking out like 10 horses a day, and that's a lot of horses to muck out on your own. And then there was a young girl that used to come and help me, Yvonne her name was, and she used to come and help me. And she then needed um, now, what do they call it? Where they go and work for a couple of weeks, don't they. What do they call it?
MG: Work experience,
SB: Yeah, exactly. Work Experience. And she said, can I come to you for work experience? I said, Oh, yes. And she stayed. She never went back to school [laughs] and so we went all through that winter, which, like the following winter, obviously, 76 winter, 76,77 winter. And she was a godsend. Bless her, yeah, and she came every day, so we mucked out and by then, I'd probably got 20 to muck out, at least, if not more. But when you go, I mean, it's a, typically, the age of the place, I mean, there's the floor on in the yard is absolutely amazing, for a start, it's all like little I suppose the one-inch squares, okay, all over.
MG: How old were the stables? When were they built?
SB: Now, let me see, must have been 1600 and something. I should think. I don't think it's written up anywhere, funnily enough, I must, you must have had to look it up. It must be written down somewhere because it was built with the house. It must have been
MG: Okay. We were talking about something of long standing.
SB: Oh yes, oh yes, it's nothing like you get nowadays inside. I don't know whether you've ever been to the Royal Mews, but the actual stables are very much like the Royal Mews, what they call standings. And say, the yard. Just let's picture the yard first is a massive, great square, and the stables are all around. You have a big opening, which I believe in days gone by, it probably had gates on it. It was that big and high, with brick wall, and it never had gates on it in my time, I've never seen it with gates, but I imagine it might have had gates at one time. In the middle, as you walk straight in, in the middle, there was a barn, huge barn we, I used to put hay straw, and if you took the flooring up, the planks, there was like planks up. It was a great big pit, because that was what the men used to get down to mend the coaches. So you put the coach over it, and then you could get the bottom of the coaches.
My husband used to mend the cars in the same way just have to drive, which a bit dodgy. It's a drive on just about get the tires each side. And then he'd stand there and could get underneath the car, which, so that was how they were. And then there was like a barn each end as well. Miss Midge used to keep her car in one, and I used to keep mine in the other. So that was there. And then, if you went to the right, that's when the stable started. So there was 4, 8, 9, standings going that way, and a big mare and foal box in the corner. But it's all, if you can imagine it. It's all metal, iron, scrolling over the top of the bars was bars, each and each standing so the ponies went in. The mangers were fixed, and they had fixed water holes, which were china, and they had fixed eating bowls for the manger, for their food, which you couldn't take out, or anything you could. They were a bit of a devil to clean, because, of course, if the food got stuck around it, you couldn't lift them out like you could a bottle. They were chopped, you know, really big china.
And then this, there would be a hay rack. So again, a metal thing with metal bars, and you put the hay in, shut the rack, and then they could eat through the bars. So they were absolutely perfect. And as I said, I say nine, nine standings that side was one went around the corner, and then a big mare and foal box in the corner, again, a fixed manger, hay rack and stuff. And that was a huge box. And it obviously was meant for foaling, if you was going to breed a foal, but we used to use it for the big hunters, if we had a hunter in or a big horse in the end. I mean, I had somebody's, oh, beautiful horse called Shamrock, which was the Huntsman's horse. And I don't know why he came to stay, but he did anyway. That was by the by but he went in there, and then you went the other side of the yard, much the same along this side there would have been, let me just think about five or six stables standings again. And then you had next to them, you had four stables, one which were probably just ordinary stables with half doors, but you went through to another one at the back, so you could put one horse in at the back and then you put another one in the front. Obviously you couldn't get the one at the back out until you got the one, so that could be a bit awkward, but anyway, but that's what you did. So you had four stables there, and then between the two, beside the second sort of barn thing. You went up an alleyway around the back, there were four big boxes, really big boxes, which when the horses all got flu at one time, I put three or four little ponies in each of these boxes because they weren't well and that worked quite well. Also, I had, I did have a mare had her foal in one of the boxes. Yeah, that that worked all right.
And you you could walk down all the way through them, and the boxes were there. But you also had a nothing that you see nowadays, and also with the ponies that were in the standings at night, you put a blocked piece of wood in which fitted in proper fittings. I'm not sure I'm describing this very well, but a plank of wood, if you like, but a solid and you popped it in, and then you put like a metal rod that was on a piece of string, through a hole, through the fitting, and in through the bar. And so they couldn't lift the bars up, yeah. So that's how they used to stay at night. They were untied, and they could stay in them as stables at night. So, yeah. So there was quite a lot, I suppose, 4, 8, 9, 10,...18, there must be 18. Must have been 24 boxes. So you could house 24 because one time when I had so many horses when they came in in the mornings for feed that we used to have to tie them up on rings all the way around the yard, because I had so many horses, and I had a lorry, we used to tie them to the lorry as well, with their buckets. There was just so many. It was ludicrous, really, when you think back.
MG: So if you got 24 stalls and 48 horses. Two horses going into...
SB: Its too many. Doesn't fit, does it. [laughs] Yes, absolutely yes, especially these big ones around the back. We used to put two in side by side. You tied them up, obviously, but they were eating, so they were fine. So yeah, used to do that quite a bit. Put two in each [indistinct] and if they were compatible, you could put them in anyway. And also, I had the [indistinct] when they again, when they were all ill. I had, they all had strangles at one time, so they all had to come in. And I had this big barn with say, hay, one side straw the other. And we put about six of them in there at night just to keep them warm. And obviously they pooed everywhere and eat the hay. But it didn't matter, as long as they were in and, you know, getting better. That was where we did it.
MG: This is where I display my ignorance, you said strangles.
SB: Oh yes, that's a pretty dreadful thing that horses get. I mean, it's messy. More than anything, it doesn't kill them. A lot of people think it does because of the name. It's a horrible name, but it doesn't kill them. It's just a question of antibiotics. But their throats swell up like, like yours when you have a cold and you have but these, they burst, and there's a lot of horrible stuff in them, so it's just messy, more than it's dangerous. They feel a bit rough for a few days, but they soon get over it with antibiotics. And any vet will tell you that it doesn't kill you. Kill your pony. A lot of people think it does, but it it's very contagious, that's the only thing.
You mustn't bring other people's horses onto your yard if they get it. And I had, they all had it. Every single pony I possessed, I think had it for a couple of weeks. I suppose. I can't honestly remember how, how long it went on for, but, yeah, so it sounds horrible, doesn't it? But they call it that because it, you know, as I say, it's like a like, lumps. When you get a cold and you you feel a bit rough and, but they usually burst, and then you've got to keep bathing them. And, yeah, but they're okay. They get over it. So, yeah.
MG: So are you, you mentioned a foal using one of the big boxes for the foaling. Were you breeding horses?
SB: No, no, no. Only by mistake [laugh] I did one on purpose, and one by mistake. I had a little pony, little coloured p..., only a tiny pony, which I'd kind of inherited because the people that owned it couldn't afford to keep it any longer. So I was for want of better word, I was stuck with it because it wasn't a lot of use, because it was a sweet little thing. I didn't worry. Anyway, I went off shopping one day, came back and the girl said, oh, you've got to look at Patch, was her name, you've got to look at Patch. She's in that big box. And when I looked, she'd got a foal the size of a dog in width, and we had no idea she was pregnant.
Anyway. So that was the one mistake. Yes, that was fine. And then I had another horse, beautiful horse, called Florette, and I took her down to the New Forest, to a lady called Jennie Loriston-Clarke [an Olympic level rider, breeder and international equestrian judge], who had a beautiful stallion called Xenakis that I paired her with. And she had a beautiful foal. The short story is she had a beautiful bay foal, so she was on purpose, yeah. [Laughs]
MG: So you've described the stables to me, and you describe the sort of two big barns at each end. Were the flats above the barns?
SB: Oh, yes, of course, I forgot to say about the flats. Yes, in this corner was the way you went up to mine and Miss Midd's. So Miss Midd went off to the right, and she had a kitchen and a lounge, and she had three bedrooms at one time. And then she didn't need...her mother passed away, so she had a brother and her own and then and her brother passed away, and that's how she managed to give me that room, because my children's bedroom was there as well. But we went to go to it the different way. We went through our flat, which we turned off to the left, and we went through our bathroom to get to my children's bedroom, and then I had big kitchen, lounge and bedroom at the other end. So that was mine, and the other side of the yard in that corner where Mr. and Mrs. Hay and they had farmed the land.
[There is a reference on the 'Our Hertford and Ware' website to Mrs Hay having, when Panshanger House estates were beoing auctioned in 1953, a verbal yearly agreement to 21 acres of arable land. https://www.ourhertfordandware.org.uk/content/places/hertingfordbury/panshanger-park/the-panshanger-estate-sale-1953/panshanger-house-sale-document]
SB: They were an elderly couple by then, but they'd farmed all the land, and obviously Redlands said, you can still say there they they were. I suppose they were in their 80s. I remember Mr. Hay passed away. They had a son that lived with them as well, and they so they had all of that half to live in. And the son used to keep pigeons, and he had them in a loft there as well as outside loft as well. But so they lived there for many years before I'd got there, I suppose not before I'd gone riding there. They were there when I was, like, 16, but, yeah, they they lived there, which, which was fine, but they had, they didn't use this way. They didn't come through the yard, because I'd always got horses scattered around, whatever, and I think they'd made that arrangement with Miss Midd so they had a back way in. They used to go past the yard and they could get in the back way to their flat. So yeah, so there were flats above, above the stables, which was fine. Helped keep you warm a bit, I suppose. Because in those days, you just, I just had a…
MG: you've also got neighbours as well. So,
SB: No. that was it. Oh, for us, yes, you see what you mean. Yes, yes, yes, they were there as well. And, yeah, yes, that was not a problem at all. So, yeah.
MG: So what, what was Miss Midd like?
SB: Oh wonderful, most wonderful, wonderful. Patient, understanding...woman. Very difficult to describe her, because you you had to know her, to know her, if you know what I mean, she was wonderful for me, because she when she knew I was going to move there, move in, she said, Oh, I'll look for somewhere to live. And I said, oh, don't do that. Miss Midd stay if you want to stay. Because she she had looked, I think, a couple of places, and she wasn't happy with that. And I said, No, stay. I said, there's no reason I don't need any more. I only needed the two bedrooms. My kids slept in the same room. It didn't matter. I'd bunk beds for them, and they were fine. And I said, No, so she said, I said, because she said, Well, if I'll pay you rent, because obviously it was all mine in my lease. I said, No, no, don't do that. I said, if you can put the feeds around in the mornings, because she was, well, happy for doing that. I said, if you put the feeds around in the mornings, because my children were still young, I've got to get them ready for school. I said, then we can work something out like that, which is what we did.
So she, I would hear her in the morning, bonk, bonk, with the buckets, bonk, bonk feeding all the horse, obviously horses, either in the winter, they might be in, but a lot of them weren't in. So by the time she bonked all the way around with all the all the feeds I used to then go around with, like 24 however many horses I was going to catch at the time, head collars. Put the head collars on at the gate. They would run round and go in this stables. Occasionally you'd hear Miss Midd go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, in a very loud voice, because one was going somewhere else. But anyway, she was wonderful. Every child would tell you she was amazing. She treated everybody the same. Didn't matter whether you had loads of money and had a horse of your own, or several, or whatever, or you didn't. She treated everybody the same. Tried to teach everybody the same, whatever she wanted you to do or to learn. She would try and teach you that way. She did marvelous things with, with the ponies and lots of girls and boys. She did have two or three boys that used to do things with her, go to shows, and she took them all to, I think they went to France or something once, and some of them just went. They didn't have anywhere to stay, so they slept on her floor, in her but in her hotel, that was the sort of thing she just did.
And she was she loved ballet. She used to go to the ballet quite often, and so generous with everything. If my car broke down, 'Oh, take mine', and I was forever off in her car. If mine wasn't working, she just didn't mind what she did for you. She used to go and fetch my children. If I was busy and my children would be off out to tea with somewhere apart, I'll go. Off she'd go and fetch them from when it wherever. Yeah, they Claire, my daughter used to go to Mr. Bishop's, who was the dentist at the time, and she was at school with both his daughters, and she used to go off to Auriol's, was her friend, and have tea or go to a party there and, 'Oh, I'll go' she said, and off she used to go in her car and pick my kids up from whatever. She used to go pick them up from school. If I was busy, she would just do anything for me. She was she was lovely. She was everybody loved her.
MG: I mean I've seen pictures of her, sitting on a horse,
SB: On a horse, yes,
MG: in full riding gear, looking quite formal,
SB: Oh yes, she was formidable, yes she was formidable but like I said, you had to know her, to know her, if that makes sense, because once you got to know her, then she was just amazing. She was just wonderful.
MG: And she was involved in all sorts, gymkhanas
SB: Oh everything, yes, she ran the Prince Philip Cup, which is a very prestigious cup for children that do gymkhana-ering and it goes all over the country, she used to take teams to Filey, and I can't remember what the names of the places now, but she also they ended up, it was
MG: Filey in Lancashire?
SB: yeah yes, it's a, its a, I think they went to Bognor as well, all sorts, anywhere where there was a Butlins, they used to do, like rounds of Prince Philip. And then, I don't know how many teams started off quite a lot, but they ended up with the final six teams would be at Olympia. And she organised all of that, and then you had a team that would win. And she did have a Prince Philip Cup winning team at one time, which was Enfield Chace. So they all went by the names of the hunts, wherever the hunts were, and she did actually have the team that won one year, which was quite a big thing for her, really. It was wonderful. But she also used to, I don't suppose you've ever been but a lot of people that love horses, or are interested in horses, or like horsey stuff, whatever, go to Olympia, and they the show jumpers, all dress up and do pant-. They don't do the pantomime, but they do dress up. And she does drag them into, what she used to, drag them into doing stuff, dressing up and doing pantomime. When the kids all went, she used to take loads of ponies and do pantomime. And she was in charge of all that, all the costumes. And she had a little help. There was a couple, three, four people used to help her, but she organised it. And she was just, I think, once she retired from doing the yard, and, you know, and I taken over. Then that gave her more time as well, which made life a lot easier for her, because sometimes she used to actually go away and stay at friend's house, not often, but she had a friend of, bred ponies in...er... Malvern area. I never know. Remember that's Worcestershire or Wiltshire. But anyway, used to go and see her sometimes, stuff like that. So I think that made life a bit easier for her with me being there. So yeah, she was just a one off, one of those ladies that was a one off. You know, she could mix with royalty, and she did, and she could mix with whoever.
MG: So I have this sense of horse riding as being something that really is an expensive business. I mean, horses need to be fed,
SB: certainly nowadays
MG: looking after, all the rest of it, so, and I don't come from that kind of background, so my sense is that the people riding horses and coming into the stables would have been reasonably wealthy.
SB: No,
MG: but you have a different view.
SB: I corrected you with that, didn't I before when we spoke on the phone, yes, yes, I found through most of my life, obviously, there are people with that are wealthy, and are quite happy to pay me to look after their horse, or anybody else for that matter. And did have full livery, and that would cost you a bit more, obviously, because you're providing the food and you're doing all the work and you're exercising their horse, especially hunters, if they have to be exercised, it's best if they exercise every day, but at least every other day, which we used to do, then yes, you you've got to have a bit of spare money. But mostly, I found with most of my girls that some got ponies.
Some never did get ponies. I mean, there was no way I was going to ever have a pony as a youngster. As I said, my parents couldn't afford it, but if you did, then you scrimped and saved to keep that horse, and that's what you did, or your parents did, if you were a bit younger. But otherwise, in my experience all through my life, because once I left Panshanger I still was with horses. I still had horse of my own. My daughter had horses, and that's I said. We kept them at Watton, but all my money went on my horse, and my daughter as well. We worked to keep the horse...because we weren't wealthy. We didn't have spare money. But things are entirely different now, of course, I look at it that when going back, I can only sort of say from Panshanger say when I didn't get many vets’ bills, when I was at...when I had the one or horse, or my daughter's horses at Watton-at-Stone, but when I had Panshanger, as I said, at one time, 48 horses. But obviously the vet came fairly regularly. There was always one that wanted something done or whatever. Obviously, if they owned the horse, and the person paid, that was their vets bill, not mine, but I had all that. I mean, of the 48 I suppose 12 of them, at least, were my own, that I bought for for the riding school, for people to ride.
And I used to get the vet and get a vets’ bill and I never used to go 'urrghh' [expresses mock horror], never frightened me. I just used to pay it. But nowadays people are frightened to call a vet because the fee is astronomical. What they charge is ludicrous, and none of my horses were insured. You didn't take out insurance in those days, where now people insure that, sorry, their cats and their dogs [laughs], which is stupid, isn't it? I mean, you know, if you took a dog to the vets in the older...I mean, Roy and I've always had dogs, but you didn't think, Oh, God, how much is it going to cost. You took the animal because it was ill and you needed it to be better, and you never thought, 'God, how much is this going to be?' you just paid it because it wasn't astronomical.
But now, of course, it is a different sort of thing. But I mean, I've known a lot of women up to my age and younger, of course, but have always scrimped and saved to keep their horses. We're all getting older now. Not so many of my friends have got horses now, um but it is a... Now it probably is a more expensive thing. You're talking about... I think that hay has gone up to about eight pound a bale, now, which my horse would have half a bale a night to eat, and actually was a fairly big horse, which always must have because they eat for 22 hours, 24 hours, or they should do, if they can, they will eat for 22 hours, and they should, because they they've got a peculiar gut system. They can't vomit. If they're unwell, they can't vomit. So everything has to go through them. That's why they get colic sometimes, because blockages in their digestive system. But they must keep feeding.
And so that's just you're going to say, you know, as I say, eight pound for a bale of hay. That's only going to last me two nights for one big horse. You know, then it's getting to be a lot of money, isn't it? And if you have your own facilities, of course, that makes it a lot cheaper, because otherwise you've got to pay for the box, and you've got to pay for your bedding, and you've got to pay for the hard feed. You've got to pay the blacksmith, which I think is anything now from 80 to 100 pound for a set of shoes, which, if you're riding a horse a lot, it'll need shoeing every six to eight weeks. So yeah, I suppose nowadays, things are a bit different, because you don't have very many places, like Panshanger that would take your horse and look after it. Or you could do a half livery, which I think I explained to you before I had quite a lot of ponies on half livery, which suited me and suited the owners. They didn't have to pay me so much.
MG: So what's the difference between full livery and half livery?
SB: Full livery and half livery, yeah. If you have your pony on half livery with me, which most of them were ponies like children's good size pony, you know, a child could ride, teenage size could ride. Then you didn't pay me as much livery, but you decided you either had your horse on a Saturday or a Sunday or you had it Saturday afternoon and Sunday afternoon, and I had it Saturday morning and Sunday morning, then I could use it for a ride. So I got the money for the ride, and they didn't have to pay me so much. I fed it and paid it. They would normally do the work on it. Obviously, things got different in the week. You could, if it was yours, you do what you like with it all the week. Um...but and a lot of people wanted to do what they call DIY, which they means they muck it out and they do everything for it. So that that worked out fine.
But if you have full livery, then I do everything, I turn it out, change its rugs, turn it out, feed it, hay it, water it, do its bed turn it out, catch it in. I do everything for you, and you just come and ride it when you feel like it. That's the full livery. So that obviously that is a charge a bit more, because you're doing everything. You're doing all the work. You're doing everything for that horse. The owner obviously has to pay for that, and you're feeding it and haying it, and the owner also pays for the shoes, because they're the only ones riding it. I don't use it to be ridden, unless some people used to say, Oh, you could use him her if they were going away, say, for a weekend or something, if you like, because they like their horses being exercised, you see. So that did happen occasionally, not often, but that did happen as well. But yeah, that was the way that worked, which, say, the part livery was ideal for owners and for me, because it gave me another pony to use, yes, or several. In that case, it was and so the more people could ride. And that was worked well.
MG: So it must be in a very full stables over the weekend, with people riding and...
SB: [laughs] manic, absolutely manic, couldn't move. It, you know, if you're afraid of horses, you wouldn't walk through the yard, not that they'd hurt you, but they were just everywhere.
MG: The other sense I have of it is that horses and horse riding appeals more to girls, than it does to boys.
SB: yes, yes, yes.
MG: Why is that?
SB: I don't know, I can't say for sure, but it's definitely true, and yet it's a strange thing, because most of the top show jumpers are men, which is really weird. But um yeah, I mean, I could count on one hand, I think I said to you before I could count on one hand how many boys I had, that came to ride. And I could almost name them, to be honest, because there was so few. But yeah, girls just come and come and come, and they want to come. And I suppose, like me, there's something about it, and you can't describe it. It's in your blood. I mean, it's, I think it's always been in my blood, because my my grandfather, my great grandfather, think I told you, used to drive the ambulance and the handsome cab, which was like a taxi in, and the fire engine all horse drawn. And I have a picture of him in the castle grounds where he used to keep his horses, because there was stables there then. Obviously it's not now, but yeah, he...
MG: Who, who is your grand...?
SB: my great grandfather was a man called William Storey, right? And he lived in Currie Street. He was a Hertford man, yeah. And his wife was my great grandmother, obviously, who I remember, and she died when she was 98 and I was 13 then. And I always think it's a bit weird. I know this isn't sort of to do with things we're talking about, in a way. But when she was born, Abraham Lincoln was the President of the United States, and I knew that woman, I find that really fascinating. [William Storey married Elizabeth Emily, née Martin. She was born in 1859. Abraham Lincoln became president in 1861].
And when I tell it, because I have friend who lives in America, that she did live in America, and I told her friends, when we were there that my great grandmother was alive, and they're like...well, you gobsmacked, aren't you? And to think I knew that woman quite well. I mean, I was 13 before she died, yeah, and the American Civil War, she lived through all that amazing and but this he was my great grandpa. I never met him. He died before I was born. My great grandfather. But, yeah, he was very horsey. Did lots of things with horses. Did all the you know, my aunt used to tell me how he'd stand grooming them and keep going [blows air out of her mouth as though getting rid of a fly] so you didn't get the hair in his mouth. They remember things like that about him, yeah, so perhaps it's in your blood that what you know, through generations, I don't know, it's often said it's a slightly sexual thing, because horses are very muscley and...they are beautiful, which obviously women appreciate. I'm not saying men don't. I suppose they do, but they are muscley and they are gentle and they're I don't know what it is.
I can't say what it is, and I can't stand next to a horse without I touch it. I can't drive past the field without I look, if this horse is in it. I have to look at the horses. And I think any person that feels like me would say the same. They just want to be with them. And they give you so much for so little, really, they don't ask a lot in return. And they're, I think a lot of it is the looking after, of course, again, that's perhaps in in females, because we're made to nurture. We're born to nurture, aren't we, whether we like it or not, you are if you're a woman, you are maternal. And horses need looking after. They need a lot more looking after them riding. And perhaps women like that, or girls, I should say, they all used to like and come and muck out. They never quibbled about, all the girls that came and they were, there was a lot of girls they were all still at school, mostly young teenagers, and they all used to turn up at half past six in the morning and muck out. And they never moaned about it. They never, nobody ever baulked at it. They all did it as if they wanted to do it. And anything else you know, the grooming and the tacking up, and then getting other people on the horses, everything. It's all looking after the horse to the right way, I suppose. So maybe it is the nurturing thing in us. I don't know. But they...they certainly are...
MG: I certainly think it's a rare talent to have teenagers up at six o'clock in the morning, and without complaint.
SB: Oh absolutely, absolutely. This day and age it would be, yeah, my girls just used to come every Saturday, every Sunday. Never quibbled about it, it’s what they did. Yeah...
MG: So, there's clearly the Gymkhana element and the the the shows. There's also the riding of the horses. And I don't have a good sense of where that horse is being ridden to, because you used to use the bridle way. But then that got chucked where are the horses being, how are they being...?
SB: Its harder, isn't it? I mean, when I was at Panshanger, there was a lot, we didn't have to do a much road work. But of course, in those days, the roads weren't like they are now. I mean, my daughter used to, I mean, she was like so I'm gonna say perhaps she, I mean, she learned to ride as soon as she could, really um and we had the back field which led out, there was a big gate, led out onto the B1000. You crossed the B1000 this gate was on a corner and went across the road, and you're heading towards Tewin but we used to rent a field at Marden field, at Marden Park, Marden Farm, Marden Hill. That was it Marden Hill.
Then my daughter would go with my son, who was two years younger than her as, gonna say seven, and he was five, probably, to turn out a horse they'd go across this she would get off, to open the gate, get back, climb on the gate, and get back and go across this road, which, I mean, I wouldn't let her do now five years on, but it wasn't dangerous. I mean, we used to ride and, saying about the hunters, you would ride one and lead two, and then talking about, you know, quite big horses. So you take three horses, three abreast, down the B1000 and round Marden Hill as a short, you know, half an hour trot out sort of thing for hunters, just to loosen them up and give them bit of exercise. But you didn't worry about the traffic. And also, of course, the drivers were probably a lot more patient than they are nowadays, but they always slow down for you, and half expected you to be there, I suppose, because they knew the area, possibly.
But we used to ride down to when I took rides, so used to take them down again B1000 you had to go. That was only way you could go, go right, left, or cross the road, whatever. There was loads of bridle paths. But if you wanted to go to one a bit further, which was the aerodrome, which is Panshanger aerodrome, there's a bridle path right down. I honestly don't know whether what that's like now, because I don't go there, but you went all the way down the B1000, and then it turned off. And I would take 15 kids, and we'd all go along down the B1000 and I used to say, single file, and you always put a safe pony at the back that wasn't going to, you know, scoot off if it were, they were all pretty safe anyway, otherwise I couldn't keep them. But you wouldn't have one at the back that was liable to scoot because a motorbike come flying up behind it, you know.
And we used to go, say, in single file, and we'd go all the way down the B1000 turn off to go up to Panshanger aerodrome, and we'd come out, and then come back down onto the B1000 to go home again, that sort of thing, as I say, you never worried about the traffic, because it wasn't there, I suppose. You know, there were lorries and there were bikes and there were motor bikes and but not to the extent that they are now. So I suppose all that is different. And people moan about horses on the road, and they really shouldn't, because we have far more right on the roads than any car or any lorry or anything. You know, that is the law that if ever there's a horse on the road, it has the right way. But a lot of people don't seem to know that. And of course, don't care nowadays, because some you'd get the odd bodd that thought it was funny to try and spook a horse. They seem to realise it's a child on the top as well. Had they not got children, I don't know. They just think it's fun to scare the horse and not thinking about there's a child on top. You know, didn't happen often. I mean, they were brilliant. I used to have good ponies, and if we were going to have to cross the road, I just used to stand on my pony, put my hand up, stop the traffic, and all the kids went across the road. And it always worked. And nobody seemed to mind in those days. But I know things are different now, and I don't know where people go to ride from. There is, I have a friend that has horses in what stone, and you can ride from her place around the bridle ways and Brownfield woods. We used to go to Brownfield woods from, again, from panshanger, obviously used to have to get to Brownfield. First, but you did. But she can ride from there back to her house without actually going on a road. But you do have to go on roads. People say, why don't they stick to the bridle ways? Well, you've got to get to the ride aways first. They don't appear and just pop up. You know where you want them to be. So, yeah, we do have to, and you have to have all sorts safe on roads now, because you've always had to go on the roads to get to the bridle ways.
MG: You mentioned when we did meet earlier about doing summer picnics.
SB: Oh, yes, yes. Kids used to love it. Yeah. I used to say, you know, summer holidays, obviously, because we've got to have fairly good weather, but we used to make a plan of the route that we would go on, which, of course, we had to and everybody would hire their pony for the day, and we'd go off and do a picnic. So everybody packed up a picnic, which I think I probably told you, my mother had a little car then, and she everybody put their picnic in my mum's car, and we'd arrange we'd ride for a couple of hours, say, in the morning. Then we'd arrange to meet my mum somewhere where she could park. We could tie the ponies up. She would turn up. Everybody had their picnic.
We'd all sit and eat our picnics, and then we'd ride off for another mom would take the picnic bags back, and then we'd all ride off for another couple of hours in the afternoon, and obviously end up at home, because the children loved it. I mean, they thought that was great fun to have a horse all day. You know? Yeah, they were good fun. And mostly from what I remember, good weather, yeah, because it wasn't a lot of good to stop, and you know, you don't end up with a wet saddle or whatever that. So that's not good. But yeah, they only used to do one or two. I think perhaps I did two some summers. But yeah, kids loved it. You have to put your name down, and otherwise you didn't get all so you didn't get the one you wanted or whatever. So that was good fun. Yeah, getting an awful lot of fun from a pony, absolute, absolutely, Oh, can't describe it, really. But something that powerful underneath you and moving that fast, or not necessarily fast all the time, that's not the idea of them, but the power of something gets something that's the size of that and the power that they have moving underneath you, and speed is quite something,
MG: yeah, special also, I mean, I think there must be some element of
SB: risks involved, yeah, of course, You don't worry about that. They don't kick,
MG: not an aggressive way to sort of, you know they are, but they don't. They're big.
SB: They are. They are big, but they don't kick. Very rarely, people have that misconception. There are some that kick but they don't kick out humans. They just kick out each other. They'll do that, but it's very if they kick out at humans. You don't keep them normally
MG: as much thinking about them kicking out at humans, human you shouldn't to be in the way.
SB: Yeah, you learn that. You don't. You're not if, if they tread on your foot, it's your fault. Because you haven't allowed where that foot's gonna go. And if you'd spend a lot of time with them, you do know where they're gonna put their feet. It's very rarely I've ever been trodden on very rarely. Then, I mean, the worst one I ever had once was when a horse come bolted out of a stable bit quick. For some reason I can't remember. I know he did tread on my foot, and that wasn't my fault. It wasn't his fault either, but he came out, and I can't remember the reason. It came out very quick.
This wasn't at Panshanger, this was my friend's horse down at Watton. He trod on my foot and had a black toe for about a year. But it's just one of those things. If you're standing with it, you're doing something to it, cleaning it, or you're picking its feet, or whatever you're doing you're standing next to it. Then if it treads on your foot, then it's because you're not aware of where it's putting its feet, and you should be. If you spend any time with horses, you learn that quite early on, because everybody does get trodden on, and it bloomin’ hurts. And the funny thing is, when they tread on you, you sort of think, ‘Oh, it's on my foot. It's not hurting’, and then all sudden, it gets worse and worse and worse and ‘Oh, it is hurting, now’. And you just give them a shove, and they get off, but, but you soon learn that, and you do learn where they're putting their feet, you know, so they're not dangerous.
MG: People fall off horses?
SB: Oh, fallen off. But again, if you get very good, you don't fall off very often. I can't remember one time I fell off. I fell off of her. She was my last horse. But that wasn't her fault. She tripped. She fell over. We was riding up, this heavy bit, and there was tree root that was across the path, and it she just sort of kind of stumbled, and I just fell out the front door, but I landed on my feet so it didn't and got back on touch wood. I mean, bit late for touching wood, but I never, never hurt myself the only time. I was riding, somebody else was in front, and they went up a hill, and I don't know what happened, but I fell off the back. I've no idea how it happened. If you don't, it's like, every accident is so quick. You don't know how happened. But I fell out the back door. And again, I think I like, well, didn't land on my feet, but I ended up on my feet, and I was fine. You know, got back on the next day. I couldn't move. Everything ached. I'd obviously landed on my back and hurt everything, but I felt fine when it first happened. Otherwise, no, I mean, people do break things, I know, and I mean, like jockeys, of course, that's a different, whole new, different scenario. But in all the years, I had one girl that did break her elbow once she fell this because she probably wasn't very good rider, to be honest, and not being nasty, it's the truth of this. It's what it is.
MG: We all have to start somewhere.
SB: Yeah, of course, yes, of course. But she did break her elbow, and another friend of mine fell off. And I think I told you, she broke her tail by coccyx, and that was painful for quite a long time, for many years. Actually, I don't think she ever fully recovered. But otherwise, I mean, no, you usually stay on if you if you pretty good, yeah. And if you ride the same horse or pony all the time you get to know them, and they get to know their moves and the different angles and things that they'll turn out or shy out, or a new you just know them, you know.
MG: So I've taken up huge amount of your time. Oh, it's fine. Is the other side. Just want to explore with you, because, yeah, you had a 10-year lease, yeah, and it sounds like it was a very successful stable. Yes, yes. When you bought horses, where were you buying them in from? Oh,
SB: usually, I always said I never went out to look for a horse. They always came to me, very strange. I mean, when I first took over from the lady, I told you about Marion, she had two ponies there, and I bought them, both of her they, that was one called little grey, called Puffin, and I bought him because obviously she didn't want them anymore. She was, you know, staying in London then, and she had another little pony there called Halo, and I bought him. My daughter had him, but I used him in the school as well. So that was how two came. One, I went with a girl to look at one, and it wasn't suitable for her, but it was suitable for me, so I bought that. And I didn't really go to look at it for me. I just thought, yeah, that would do for me. And I bought it. Another girl left me her pony, not literally, she didn't die or anything, but she sort of was grown up, shall I say, and her pony had stayed with me as a livery for a very long time, and then she asked me if I would keep him. So I did this one. It was my last one, but that wasn't at Panshanger that I had her. She was actually left to me.
MG: But this is a photograph on your wall of a white,
SB: a grey, yeah,
MG: or grey
SB: yeah, grey, called Alice, yes, yes. My friends did that for me for a birthday present. I didn't know it was done, and that's why she's got mud on her face, because they couldn't clean up properly. But took the photograph, and that was, I think it was a birthday present or a Christmas present, but, yeah, they gave me that. But I was actually left her, a lady I knew in, um, where did she live? Oh dear. Oh Sandy, no, not saying that's not right. Oh dear, going just up the road, oh dear. Anyway, she used to breed horses, and she used to send them to me. She'd have them broken, but then she'd send them to me to sort of let the kids push them around and draw and ride them and see if they were suitable for for her to sell on. And if she didn't sell sometimes she just say ‘Oh, keep that one’.
So I just used to just get them [laughs] Okay, I'll keep that. Yeah, people, surprisingly used to want to give me horses all the time. One I did buy who was lovely, and I think I probably told you about him, and he was an absolute stalwart and everybody loved him. His name was Friday, and he was a chestnut, and she knew - she'd bred him, but she sold him to a man in her village who bought him for his son to jump. And then the son didn't want to ride him or jump him, so she said, Would I like and she lent him to me for a while she's or the man did. That's right he said, see how you get on with him. And in the end, I ended. Up buying him because he was so useful. So I did buy him, but I didn't go out to get him. Just ended up that way. Yeah, it was strange how people Yeah, did the one that I'd bred the foal from Florette, she came to me again by from a friend, if you like, and he then decided I'd kept him, kept her for quite some while, he’d gone away or something, and I had her as livery, and then he said, I don't want her back. Do you want to buy her? So I did.
And that sort of how it happened, really. I never, ever actually went out to look for a horse. They all sort of turned up, which is really strange. I mean, one I bought from Sally, I think from Sally that I told you, from Sally Pakes she was and she had her and her son, and they both came to me, and then she wanted to sell the mare. So I bought the mare because I'd ridden her a lot, and I loved her. And so I did buy her from Sally, but Sally also lent me the son who I used. Sally didn't want to ride him or anything, and I used him all the time, so I kept him and looked after him, and, you know, paid for everything for him sort of thing. Yeah. So that was how I ended up with those two. So that was the sort of thing that happened. If you know, people have got horses. I don't want this one anymore. You can have it type of thing. Weird. But, yeah, it all seemed to work quite well.
MG: But the care of the animal going is going to a good place.
SB: Yes, of course they knew that I would love it and care for it. They obviously knew that. So they were quite happy for me to have them, which is quite amazing, really.
MG: Well, what I have a sense of, I've seen this online as well, is a real sense of community. And the stables closed in 19…
SB: ’86 I had to get out. Yeah. So that was it. Roughly, nobody went back.
MG: So they closed in ‘86 but there's still a Panshanger stable Facebook page. Yes, still,
SB: yes, yeah, that took off far more than I intended it to to be honest, I decided to do that with my daughter. We said, oh, let's have a Panshanger. And I wanted all my girls that had worked for me or kept their ponies with me or whatever, to see a lot of my I mean, they'd seen them obviously, but lots of pictures and whatever. So I thought that would be a good idea to have a Panshanger stables page. Well, that just took off, didn't? It just went berserk. I have people now wanting to join it. I have no idea who they are, and obviously people like Sally's generation joined. I mean, Sally is in it and and then there were people coming from way back and way back and even further back that used to work for Miss Midd and so and so on.
And it's just absolutely snowballed. It's ludicrous. Now, I don't know how many members we've got, but that wasn't really the intention. But, I mean, I don't mind, don't get me wrong, it's nice that people contribute. And, you know, do you remember sort of things? And of course, because I'm so old, I do remember a lot of them. They don't always remember me, because at some time, I was probably just the kid that went riding once a week. But I remember them because they perhaps were helping or working for Miss Midd or things like that. But that, yeah, that has snowballed into something quite different, quite big, and it's nice. I mean, obviously, because people can still see things, or they're interested in, you know, what was that pony's name and all those kind of things. So, yeah, so there's still, I mean, Panshanger stables, as the building is still there, it's just that they messed it about a bit and did things I don't know did things made it into, like, office, if you like, but us girls that were all, like, younger then. I mean, obviously it's a lot of a lot younger than me.
But of course, we just remember it for the stables and the horses, and you didn't really want it to change, and that's just because we loved it as it was, and it was always our picture of it is full of horses, and that's how we wanted to remember it, I suppose. But they haven't actually ruined it, but they've changed all the upstairs where we lived and everything, because when my son got married, he wanted to go back there the day he got married, and asked permission, and we did go back and took all the wedding party, if you like, and a nice lady said, would you like to go and see upstairs? And we sort of hesitated because we knew it was going to be different. I mean, it was totally different. So we did. We went up and you couldn't really recognise it from how I had it, you know, had a big, warm, muddy kitchen, as I was called in. It had a big Rayburn in it, and the kids used to all come up and have coffee and buns and stuff. It was, you know, big enough for loads of us to sit in and that, because that's all gone, and where Miss Midd was all gone.
And, yeah, they haven't ruined it, but it's just different. And, but they have kept most of the stables bits as stables moved all the drains out of course [laughs], which is silly, really keep the drains, but, yeah, it's they haven't ruined it the same. When you walk in, you can see what it was like, but it's not as it was. Sadly, there it is, I suppose it they haven't got the fields. They wouldn't. You need fields with horses. You need grazing. So you can't have it as it is, I think, with people in and out all the time now, which there's a lot of people walking through. From what I gather, I have been walked around it, but not for a long time. And because when I lived there, that the old oak as it is now, which is all fenced off so people can't go and touch it, was in the middle of the woods. Just if you knew where it was, you could walk through. But if you didn't know where it was, you'd never find it. But of course, they altered all that, brought down a lot of the trees around it, and I suppose they want to preserve it, but it probably would have preserved itself perfectly. All right, where it was in amongst the woods, but it's probably its roots have been disturbed, I suppose. But it seems to be right at the moment. Yeah, it was beautiful. I mean, all the rhododendrons that they took down, you could walk down past the old oak. There was a, like a walkway. And the rhododendrons are absolutely amazing, colours and amounts of them, of course, and we're all there. But this is what it is. I suppose, some things for the good and some things not so good.
MG: Change is always a difficult thing to absorb.
SB: Sometimes, oh absolutely yes, yes.
MG: Is there anything that we haven't covered that you
SB: Oh goodness. I don't know.
MG: I could frighten you by saying, and if you think of something, you know, this afternoon, I can always come back.
SB: I don't think there's anything else that important really.
MG: I mean, I'm really grateful. I've taken a lot of time. Really wonderful. So thank you very much indeed.
SB: Not at all, not at all, I mean, I can go back further when think I said to you, I can remember as a child, living in that red brick Lodge, as they called it, The Lodge, the man coming up to deliver the milk and the bread to the school with a horse and cart. You know, that's in my days. I can remember that far back. I was probably, you know, three or four, but I can remember the man coming up the drive with a little pony, and I can remember then sitting and waiting for the pony to come back, and I was only about three, when's the pony coming back, and sit on the steps and wait, crazy, isn't it? It just must be in your body. But yeah, I can remember that. I mean, so many things that I was reading on an article, thing that was on Facebook, or something saying about all the people that, if you were born in the 40s and 50s and possibly 60s, how much the world has changed. You know, having lived through. To say, I was born just at the end of the war, everything was still rationed. I can remember my mother buying me clothes with the ration book and certain amounts. I mean, things were rationed for quite some years after I was born. They weren't just rationed for the war. They rationing went on for quite a few years.
MG: They went on into the ‘50s
SB: I think, yes, I think they did. So, I mean, you know, I can remember that mother had to have a ration book, and I remember her buying me clothes. There was a little shop around the War Memorial, which is no longer there, of course, going in there. And because I remember asking her what they were, because I knew it wasn't money, you know, she had to pay because you couldn't have clothing without ration books and and the old clinic where you went and bought the beautiful orange juice. Oh, absolutely, orange juice to die for, which was developed for us baby boomers as we were, got because we hadn't had anything or the other babies hadn't anything during the war. So they wanted you to have good orange juice. And it was beautiful.
MG: the old clinic. Yeah,
SB: Yeah, I I seem to think, and I could be wrong about this, but I know it was in up past the Salisbury, in that bit of road there where there's like Christine's Cafe was, and [indistinct] was it Chinese and stuff, and I seem to remember mother going in there and getting national dried milk as well. We used to get in tins
MG: Right
SB: To make your baby's milks and stuff, and I'm sure it was there. And I can't think. As in, like a child's baby clinic.
MG: Child's baby clinic. Ok. [Child Welfare Clinics (also commonly referred to as Infant Welfare Centers or Baby Clinics) served as a cornerstone of community care for new mothers and their young children. Mothers brought their infants to be weighed, checked by local health visitors, and examined by visiting doctors to monitor growth and development. These clinics were the primary distribution points for "welfare foods" initiated during wartime rationing and carried into the 1950s. Mothers could collect essential supplements like National Dried Milk, concentrated orange juice, and cod liver oil].
SB: Yes, which is now, as I presume, it's still there down Bull Plain. I think it is, but we used to go there. I remember going there for my polio injections, and that was in in down the bottom Bull Plain on the left, and I think that's still there. Well, the building certainly still there. Yes, the building will be. Yes, whether it's to the clinic, I don't know.
SB: Yes, there's a dentist down there. There's a dentist. Yes, beyond that, beyond the dentist. It was right before you went over the bridge, and I think it's. I know the building is definitely still there. Whether it's still a clinic, I don't know. [The Welfare Clinic, which became the Child Welfare Clinic, had been set-up in 1932 by a local Quaker (Alfred Graveson). It has evolved into a clinic for children and young persons integrated therapy services.]. But I'm sure my mother used to go in this place, up what's the name of that road? Goes up to the war memorial, but it was there somewhere. She used to go in and get this orange juice. She didn't get it a lot because I presume it was expensive. I don't know, but it was beautiful. Best orange juice you ever tasted, stuff like that. And cod liver oil and malt used to be given that on a spoon, and the dog would lick the spoon. All those sort of things.
MG: There is a doctor's practice down there.
MG: Before or after you had had your dosage?
SB: [Laughs] Oh, after yeah. Yes, I did get the biggest bit. Yeah, and then the dog used to sit there next to me, waiting for to lick the spoon, yeah, things like that. You remember, and obviously you remember, as I say, you know, not many cars on the road, and my dad had a bike and had a seat on it for me.
MG: What was your dad doing? He'd been in the...
SB: he'd been in the army. Yeah, he was in the army for the six years for six years. And when
MG: he got demobbed,
SB: he worked for Jewsons. He'd worked for Jewsons before the war, and they kept them on a retainer if if they wanted you back. I think they used to pay 10 shillings. I'm going to say a week. Yes,
MG: the the wood company.
SB: Yes, that's right. Yes, yes, they were just wood then. In those days, it was all just wood of it because they branched out to loads of things now, but yeah, he was the office manager. Well, eventually ended up being the office manager before he retired. But yeah, he went obviously went in the army, went through right to Berlin, went and even went into the Russian sector, and he was six years in the army, and then when he came out, because he'd been paid with this 10 shillings, as it was then, retainer all through the war, he went back, and that was the only job he ever had. He worked for Jewsons all his life till he retired. He took early retirement because he wasn't well. So yeah, that's what he did. Of course, it blew up into a much bigger company now. It's you know up the top there of that sort of industrial estate. I don't know what it's called. Can't remember. But anyway, it's up there, isn't it? Now they they sell no end of stuff now. Different stuff. But yeah, that's what he did. Shame. Say. Early retirement because he wasn't well and he retired at 60, but he died four years later. He was only a young man when he died really.
MG: I mean, do you remember him as a child? I mean, you've got memories of your mother sort of taking you to the old clinic and so yeah, memories of him as well.
SB: Yeah I think more because he used to take me everywhere on his bike.
MG: Right,
SB: because my grandmother, I used to leave school, and I could walk to my grandmother's in in The Lodge, and she used to give me lunch, and then I'd walk back there again at night, and he would after work come and pick me up on his bike. Always had a seat on his bike, had a seat on the back for a long while. I remember a little metal thing, and then I obviously got too big. I don't know whether I used to upset the bike, and he got one put on his crossbar, and I used to sit on that. I wasn't happy with that one. I didn't like that one. I remember as a child, don't like this. [laughs] It was just like a little saddle, you know, not all saddle, was it? Bike saddle. Just sit on that. It wasn't so comfortable. Put my feet on two things. Yeah, I mean, he didn't have a car. Couldn't. My dad couldn't drive, and so we we never had a car in those days, but then not many people did. You know, you you were a bit sort of doctors had cars, and people had, men had vans if they worked for companies that provided them with that. But not many people had a car, not when I was like that young a child. You know, five. So
MG: do you remember going out as a family? Mother and father?
MG: Yes, yes. My father was a very quiet, lovely man, really, I suppose everybody says that about their father. But he was a lovely man. Everybody liked him. Very quietly spoken. Never raised his voice. Yeah, and we used to go out a lot on the bikes. Mum had a bike as well, so we used to go off to different places and usually had a holiday each year by the sea. You went to Cliftonville or Margate somewhere like that for a week, stayed in places, and don't know how we got. Must have got there on coaches or something. Everybody went by coach, didn't they? In those days, but yes, I can remember doing quite a few things with my parents.
MG: Do you remember sort of getting frustrated being in Margate and not being able to get up the stables?
SB: No, probably not at that age. No, because I probably was only about five or six. Yes, I I don't remember. I I mean, as I said, it always just long for ponies, horses, whatever. But yeah, it wasn't till I could do it myself with my own money that I did it, obviously, seriously then, and just was what I always wanted to do. I never left it once I got my foot in the door. I'm not leaving here. I said that about the place. I said you'd have to drag me out in a box, but of course I had to get out. Going back to the Redlands thing, but yeah, yes, it's strange, isn't it? One of those things, I suppose. I mean, a lot of people like boys like trains, don't they? And yeah, trains and planes, and I don't know. It's a thing that grabs you and never lets you go. I know that, and I think most horsey people would tell you the same, unless they do it for a different reason. I don't know, but most people, like Sally, and people like her, that you know, we both know a lot of same people. We would never want to leave it, or we would always want to be around a horse and stuff. I don't know what other interest grabs you so much as that, and takes up so much time, much of your life. Yeah, there are things, obviously, like people do different things, don't they? Like cycling is quite serious for some people and love doing it and running, people love.
MG: But you don't have to muck a cycle out?!
SB: No, true. Just park it in the shed, don't you? But that's that is the thing. Is it's part of the the love is the looking after them. I'm pretty sure of that. Always has been for me, anyway. And I'm I'm pretty sure for most of the girls that I know feel the same. Yeah, and it never leaves you. Strange, isn't it? I suppose if you go surfing, it's but then you only have to clean your surfboard, don't you? There's nothing that you have to clean so much or do so much for, is there?
MG: That's true.
SB: Even a dog, you know, you eventually, you know, you might have to wash that down when you took it for a walk. But eventually, you leave it alone, don't you? With the horse shouldn't spend all day doing something for it. You really can, because if it's not the horse that wants something done, or it's stable that wants something, then its tack wants cleaning. Yeah, it's never ending. And then you get up the next day and do it all over again. You do it every day, seven days a week.
MG: and gladly
SB: Yeah, and you do it seven days a week. There's no letting up. There's no day off. Be like smoking, really. You don't have a day off if you smoke, do you? You smoke every day. Not that something like. Ever done? Oh dear! Oh, I don't know that we've. I think we've covered everything, really.
MG: Okay. Well, I'll stop the recording there. I think.
SB: Okay.
END OF RECORDING