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Transcript Title	Bird, Janet (O2025.5)
Interviewee	Janet Bird (JB)
Interviewer	Mark Green (MG)
Date	13/05/2025
Transcriber by	Mark Green (using Otter.AI for initial transcript)

Transcript

Hertford Oral History Group

Recording No: O2025.5

Interviewees: Janet Bird (JB)

Date: 13th May 2025

Interviewers: Mark Green (MG)

Transcribed by: Mark Green (using Otter.AI for initial transcript)

************** unclear recording

[discussion] untranscribed material

italics editor’s notes

MG: This is Mark Green, and today is Tuesday the 13th of May, and we are interviewing Janet Bird at home in North Hertford. We had arranged an earlier date for the interview, but we had to rearrange because Janet got an invite to a garden party at Buckingham Palace. And this wasn't the first time that you and your husband have been invited to Garden Parties. Do you want to give an insight into that?

JB: We have been exceedingly fortunate. And I have to admit that this was actually the fifth garden party we have been to. The previous four, obviously, were in the presence of Her Majesty the Queen. This time was His Majesty the King and Camilla. And it was absolutely wonderful. It was a chilly day. Lots of people were wearing very pretty dresses with not much else, and lots of people were going around looking quite chilly, but I think everybody had a wonderful time. And we saw the royal family, perhaps from more of a distance than we might like have liked, but the whole pomp and circumstance of the Yeoman Guards and the music that was playing, and as we drove, as we walked in to the palace, through the gates the they were changing guards, or they looked like they were changing guards, which sadly, made me start singing They're Changing Guards at Buckingham Palace [originally a poem by A A Milne called 'Buckingham Palace' later set to music], which stayed me for the whole afternoon. Which goes "Do you think the king knows all about me? Sure, too, dear. But it's time for tea." So we went in and we had our tea, which was wonderful.

MG: It sounds like a very pleasant afternoon.

JB: It was a lovely afternoon.

MG: So how long does the garden party last?

JB: Well, the gates open at three o'clock, the Royal Family appear at four o'clock and disappear again at five o'clock, and the gates are closed at six o'clock. So three hours, you can be in there for three hours. Most people were beginning to leave a little earlier because it was so chilly, but you have free rein around the garden. There's a lovely big lake that you can walk around. There were thankfully lots of chairs, so people were able to sit down as well. And you meet some really interesting people, people that you'd never normally get the chance to meet. And there are people dressed in their own morning suits. There are people obviously in hired morning suits. There are plenty of other normal people, like we were in just lounge suits and, and nice dresses and one thing and another, but it's, it's a wonderful opportunity to be somewhere very special.

MG: And this is, as you're saying, the fifth time, that you've been and I think that says something about the contribution that you and Colin have made to Hertford and to the wider community in your… your time here, and I'd like to explore that a bit further. That's a good starting point. Is you coming into Hertford? I think you were originally from Edmonton, yep. So you grew up in Edmonton?

JB: I grew up in Edmonton, went to school in Edmonton, married very young. For a time, we moved to Milton Keynes very briefly, because Colin was working in the city. And although we bought a house for a very good price, we were only there for about 18 months, because by that time, we were paying more in his fares into the city than we were on our mortgage, which was, you know, and it wasn't, wasn't going to get any better. So, and he was working very long hours, and I was at home with first one and then two children, so it made more sense to move back.

And we'd always loved Hertfordshire. When we were young, we used to come out to Hertfordshire. So we moved to Wormley, first of all, where we were very happy. And Colin became a partner at Price Waterhouse, and we decided that we could afford something a bit bigger and better, looked around and found a nice new house that had just been built in Ware, moved to Ware to discover that one of our neighbours three doors away was at school with Colin in his class, and round the corner in the only other house on the estate that was the same as our house lived Shirley, who I was in the choir with at school, and her husband, Terry, who was in my year at school. So it was, it's really strange the way you meet people. Wherever you go, you come across people that have got a similar background, but then we stayed in Ware for a few years, and then we moved to Hertford, and we've been very happy in Hertford

MG: So why move to Hertford?

JB: We wanted a different house. That house was very modern, didn't have an awful lot of character, and we just thought we'd like something a bit different. And we, in fact, moved into the house next door to the one we currently live in, which was a lovely house, but the house we now live in was owned by one of Colin's former partners. And we jokingly said, if ever you think of moving, do let us know. And when they did think of moving, they did let us know. And so we bought it from him. He didn't have to put it on the market, which was good. That's a really nice way of being able to get exactly where you want.

JB: Exactly.

MG: Now I'm aware that there is a rivalry, a friendly rivalry, between Hertford and Ware

JB: Oh, definitely, definitely.

MG: And I wondered whether you you've experienced life in both places, which is your preference?

JB: I have to be honest, I do prefer Hertford,

MG: and why is that?

JB: I don't know. I feel there's much more of a community in Hertford because we do belong to the church, and we've been involved with churches together. We got to know lots of people in different churches and one thing and another who became friends in Ware the two churches there seemed to be more of a rivalry between the two Anglican churches. So we didn't tend to know people in the other church. We weren't there for very long, so perhaps we didn't have the opportunity to get to know people. But in Hertford, we've been involved with doing all sorts of things, more or less since we arrived, and just feel that there's a wonderful sense of community here.

MG: So what sort of things were you involved in?

JB: Oh, mainly things through the church and getting involved in things like the Mayor's Tea Party, that all the churches would get together and provide refreshments for the elderly, of whom I'm probably one now, but you always used to find if something was happening, people that were there that you knew, because the same people were doing much the same things. I particularly remember people like Frances, like called, can use a name? [Yes, says Mark] Frances Spence. I mean, I don't know if everybody knows Fran Spence at the United Reformed Church, wonderful lady and Cheryl Jackson, both at the URC, both of whom have been involved in all sorts of things. And we still do things together, because the food bank we're all involved with, and as I say, you just get to know people for for the right reasons. And then not that long after we came, Christmas Alone started, and I I got involved with that, supposedly, just to do some singing, but it ended up being a bit more than that.

MG: You said earlier, I think, you ended up doing some of the cooking?

JB: Well, the first year, I was supposed to just help with the entertainment, but unfortunately, the lady that was down to do the cooking broke her wrist so she couldn't do it, and because it was being organised by the wife of our then Vicar, Diana Mowbray, she said, Oh my goodness, what are we going to do? And I said, don't worry, I'll sort it. So I ended up in charge of the cooking the first year, I think probably the first couple of years, and then Diana moved away, and everybody said, well, we've got to carry on doing it. But nobody felt able to take it on. And they all said no before I had a chance to, so I ended up taking over the organisation.

And obviously at that point, we needed more people to take over the cooking. And over the years, a number of different people came along and ran the kitchen. We had a professional chef a few times. The then school cook at Sele Farm, at Sele School came and actually took over the kitchen for a number of years. And she was wonderful. Betty Frith was very involved. So lots and lots of people came along and and took part and helped out.

MG: How many people were you catering for?

JB: We catered on average for about 60 or so guests, and up to 60 or so house bound meals also went out, but we also fed a lot of the volunteers that came in, many of whom were there for all sorts of reasons. They needed to be there as well because perhaps they'd had a bereavement or marriage breakdown, or something had happened in their year, and they didn't feel they wanted to stay at home, but they wanted to do something to help other people, and we wanted to make sure that everybody that came, they were giving up their Christmas Day, so we felt that we should make sure that they were fed.

MG: People are there, in lots of ways, for very sad reasons.

JB: Oh, yeah,

MG: but was it a sad occasion?

JB: Not in the least. It was a lovely occasion. Everybody said how much they enjoyed it. The number of times at the end of the afternoon the helpers would say, can we come again next year? It got to a stage where some of the guests would come every year, some because they had nowhere else to go. But over the years, it was somewhere they wanted to go because their friends were there. And I remember once having a letter from a lady, I'm ever so sorry, Mrs. Bird, but I can't come this year, because my daughter's invited me to her house. [Laughter] But also I think it helped with families, because although Christmas Day is a really happy occasion for most of us, for some families, it can be very difficult. And you know full on having perhaps mother-in-law or mother that you do find difficult, and knowing that you're going to have to change the way the family works for that day of their young children, that perhaps they love each other, but it's difficult. It was, it was a nice place for people to go, and it was only until about three o'clock so that if people wanted to go on to families or had other places to go, they could, but equally, they could go home. They've had their day. They could sit down and watch what they want to watch on the television. They went home with a, with a packed tea with cakes and one thing and another in it, and a basket of groceries designed to give them something to eat over the next couple of days, if, you know, if they couldn't get out. So it was, it wasn't just the day, it was what went on, and they'd have had good entertainment and good fellowship. So it was, it was a lovely day.

MG: And how was this funded?

JB: Purely on donations. We just relied on the donations that came in, and they did come in. People were very, very generous. Some of the churches, to begin with, most of the churches did help with the funding. But as it went on, we didn't need it, but they'd all said, if you need it, then obviously help will help. But most of the money just came in from Rotary, you know, different other, different organisations and individuals within the town. And local schools, Local churches donated gifts so that we could give everybody a present from Father Christmas. One or two of the housebound had, perhaps young children. So with some of the money, we had available, we'd go and buy a few toys for the children, just to make it special. And it was a wonderful thing to be involved with, a wonderful thing.

MG: If you're involved in the organisation of this, there have been doors you were knocking on and people you were talking to, but it sounds as though people were just very willing to be helpful. You weren't feeling a lot of pushback?

JB: I know it was, it was it was people really wanted to help. And because I'm now involved with the food bank, that's very similar. You know, we get donations of cash, we get donations of food. People in general are very caring and very kind and and they want, you know, because people are grateful for what they have in their lives. They want to help other people.

MG: I want to come on to the food bank in a moment: just on the Christmas dinner, Christmas Alone, presumably, that had to stop when it came to COVID.

JB: That's when we stopped, for the first couple of years after we stopped, we actually put to because we still had quite a lot of cash available. We put to, together hampers of food, which we took to the local sheltered housing schemes, because the bulk of our guests would have come from the sheltered housing schemes. But then, after a couple of years, then we'd run out of money, and people weren't expecting it. I was sad to give it up. Nobody came forward saying that they wanted to take it on. And so it had run its course. But in fact, one did start in Hertford, in Ware after we started, somebody came along to see how it went, decided it would be great. And that started in Ware that's been run by different people over the years, and that is still going. And in fact, they've now, they tell me they've opened that up to people from Hertford. So there have been some people going over there from Hertford.

MG: That's a lovely kind of feel to it. In terms of the food bank. Which food bank is this?

JB: Hertford. It's a Trussell Trust food bank,

MG: Right, and that's located...?

JB: in the United Reform Church.

MG: Right, ok, and how many people is that providing food for?

JB: I could tell you, I've got figures somewhere, (laughs) but the first year, for the first week we started, I think we served 17. And then last, the last year, I've got figures for it was in the 1000s in a year, probably, I don't know, 40 or 50 a week, but it can be far more than that. It can be less than that. Over COVID, a lot of the time, people couldn't come in, but food was taken out in the van to people who couldn't get food. So we made sure that those who were living in, you know, with, with real problems, that at least they had food.

MG: I know different food banks operate in different ways in terms of what they offer and so on. What does the Trussell bank offer?

JB: We have a set of core products that people get. We don't have, people don't get the opportunity to choose now, as much as they did when we first opened, it was the open door policy. People had to be referred, but they would come and collect, and they could sit and wait while it was put together, and they could decide if there was something they didn't want.

Now it works slightly differently. They tend to have the bags made up before they come. But if somebody can't eat something, then we try to make sure they have something else. If people have a special diet, then we try to make sure that they get the food they want. To start with. It was all ambient food, tinned and packets, but now we have a fridge, so they're given eggs, they're given butter, they're given bread, sometimes they're given vegetables. It depends what's available, but there's, there's a certain amount of stuff that they everybody gets, and then anything that we've got extra on top of that, at Christmas, at Easter, we give extra. If we've got a lot of anyone, amount of food, then people get a bit more in their in their well, it's far better to put it, to go out to people than to sit on the shelves and go out of date. But the the way it's organised is just amazing. Howard Ward, who started, started it in the stock control and set it all up so that everything is date listed. When the new food comes in, it's put in the right place, so that nothing gets wasted. And it it works really well. And we have about 50 volunteers all together in both, between Hertford and Ware now, because it's also in Ware, and these, a lot of the people have been doing it. We've been going for 12 years now, and a lot of those people have been involved right from the beginning.

MG: So what's your role?

JB: I'm a trustee. My husband is treasurer, bless him, I tend to be the person that goes out and does the talking. So I go and talk to children in schools. I talk to women's clubs, men's clubs, whatever, anywhere that is interested in what we do. And I will go out and talk about it prior to if people want to give a donation. Quite often, they'll say, can you come and tell us about it?

So last week, I was at Richard Hale school. Few weeks ago I was at Haileybury. I'm the only one that isn't scared of children, I think. [Laughs] But it is wonderful, and I make a point of telling the children that the food bank is there for anybody and everybody who needs it. And you, you know, you can't judge who's going to need it. Anybody could need it at any time. And the Head, the Deputy Head at Richard Hale, said to the boys there, the chances are that one of you, or several of you, or several of your families, might need it sometime. And I think that's important for people to understand that, you know, it's not a type of person that goes to the food bank, it's somebody who's in need, and we can all be in need. But I also emphasise to the children how good it is to help other people, because when you help other people, you feel good about it, as well as them. And I think, yeah, the schools have really taken it on board. [chimes ring out in the background] Sorry about that.

MG: That's fine. I thought was a doorbell for the moment.

JB: No. It will, it will chime three, three o'clock.

MG: It's a lovely chime. Well,

JB: Well, it yes, it's Westminster chimes. We were all standing by, by Big Ben with my granddaughter, who was little and said that clock sounds just like yours, grandma. [laughter]

MG: So in terms, I mean, to what extent are younger people involved in helping the food bank?

JB: Not so, not so much, because it's mainly done during the week. So we don't have the need for help at weekends, when people are available. But as I say that the, the uniformed organisations collect for food bank. They've been down there and seen it. Some of the schools have seen what goes on, and yet they're all but well aware we can't really have anybody down there when the clients are in because of client confidentiality and so it's if anybody's going to be there, they have to be somebody that is going to be involved with the food bank.

MG: You mentioned earlier that people had to be referred. Is that still the case?

JB: Yes. But if they get in touch with us, and they are in desperate need, we will help them in the in the immediate term, but we will encourage them to go to one of the agencies, if it's going if they're going to need more,

MG: when you say one of the agencies. What sort of agency?

JB: Well, people like Citizens Advice, the drug dependency agencies, local churches, I think some of the schools have got them, but a myriad of different organisations, I think there's about 50 or 60 different organisations that do have vouchers and can refer people. The only people that can't refer people are the Department of Social Security, or whatever, the job centre, which is a great shame, because some of the people that go there are the ones that really need it, but we, we, we are in discussion with them a lot of the time to try and encourage them to, to get people where they need to be.

MG: And sometimes people, it's my understanding is, need help or appreciate help with how to cook, how to buy food, how to prepare food, etc. Is that something that…

JB: it's not something we do at the moment. It's something that we would like to do. I was involved at one time on something, something similar to that, up at Sele Farm, but unfortunately, the people that turned up wanting to do it were mainly the people that actually could cook, but it looked like a great thing, and, you know, and then you can't blame them, because it was open to everybody, but the people that perhaps would have benefited from it didn't feel comfortable coming along and that that's a great shame. I mean, we do talk about perhaps putting together some sort of a simple cookery book, um with...there is a book I know that that is available for people with things, meals, perhaps you can make from what you're what you're giving. So, you know, I mean, if you're given a tin of tuna, you can make a sandwich, but you could also make yourself a fish cake, or you could make a pasta bake, or something like that. Just to give people an idea of what more they can do.

MG: It seems, at least to me, that there are more food banks around now than there were five years ago. 10 years ago, seems to be a growing thing. What do you think it is? Are we just getting poorer as a society. Is it something about Hertford? Is it?

JB: Absolutely. It's quite a difficult question that because a number of them are giving away food that the supermarkets aren't selling.So, they are more involved in avoiding food waste, than giving to people who are poor or people who are in need. Trussell Trust is very much involved with, with making sure that people who are in need, get the food that they need. And that's why we started, that's why we started the food bank, whereas some of the others, it's great that the food isn't being wasted, but anybody can, can benefit from the food that they're being given. And to be fair, it's really nice to feel that you're helping people. So lots of people want to start something, some sort of a charity, to help others, but we all work in a different way, and our our clientele, if you like, is different.

MG: But also there's that sense that the number of people in need are increasing,

JB: Yes and no. I think that, more than when I was younger, people are more aware that they can get help. I think when I worked at the CAB, we had people come in. We did keep a little stock of food there if people came in and they had nothing, but very rarely did we have people coming in saying that they couldn't afford anything. Now, whether that's because they didn't want to admit it, or whether they really couldn't, or whether, you know whether, whether life was different, different, I just get the feeling these days that there are so many different pulls on people's money. People's expectations are different, and we need, we need what our neighbours have got.

And sometimes food is the last thing that people think of, and then they suddenly realise that they don't have the food and they need help with the food. I mean, we know that there are children going to school who aren't having breakfast, which is awful, and education needs to be all round. It's not just about teaching them. Some of the schools are having to feed them as well. But I don't quite know why. I don't know what the reason for it is. It's, it's a diff… It's just life is very different these days. Because, I mean, when some of us were young, we know that lots of people had very little money, but they were able to just about cope, whereas today, it does seem sometimes that that coping is more difficult. And you know, people, people have mental health problems more than they ever did, and I feel a lot of it is, is peer pressure. You know, the way of life that we're all getting used to does make it quite difficult for many people.

MG: You talked about, you mentioned the Citizens Advice Bureau, yeah, and you were involved in that for a number of years,

JB: 15 years, 15 years. I loved it,

MG: Right.

JB: I loved it.

MG: So how did you get involved in, in CAB?

JB: Oh, well, now that's a funny question. I thought at one point I'd quite like to be a marriage guidance counsellor. I'd spoken to somebody, and they said, you'd make a great marriage guidance counsellor. And I said, well, okay, I'll give it a go. So I applied to be a marriage guidance counsellor, and the day I went for my all day interview, I was suffering from sciatica, so my body language was not good. My body language looked as though I…, and I didn't get in, and they offered me counselling to get over my disappointment for not being accepted as a counsellor, which point I said, don't worry, I'll find somebody that might want me. Um...and I went to CAB and realised that that was really much more me. And it really, it was, it was the making of me, I think because I love finding things out. I love helping people, but I love finding out details, and it, met some wonderful people, had some lovely colleagues. Still know most of them, but you really felt like you were making a difference to people's lives.

MG: So how many people were working at CAB?

JB: Probably about, I don't know, between 12, 15, something like that, up to 20, but on shifts. So there was, would have normally been about four or five of us on at any one time.

MG: during the normal working hours, or, yeah,

JB: Well, morning and afternoon, with a with a paid manager. Most of us were volunteers. They were just a couple of paid staff, but we learned so much. The training was so good. I learned so much about benefits. Used to go on tribunals with people, mainly for disability benefits, and realised just how much people were suffering and being made to fill in a huge, great form and justify why you were entitled to something, when so often, if you say to somebody, how are you, they'll say, I'm fine when they're really not. And they did. A lot of people don't like to admit just how bad they are, but obviously, to get a disability benefit, they've got to know just how bad you are. So I, I did a lot of that with people never, ever went anywhere with anybody I didn't truly believe in. I, I had to be convinced, if I was going to convince somebody else. And most of the people that I went with were wonderful people who really were suffering and really did need help.

MG: Sounds as though maybe one or two…

JB: Aaaahhh well always going to be one or two, isn't there? There's always going to be one or two.

MG: On these tribunals. Where were they?

JB: They were in London, sometimes, they were, I went to Peterborough once, and they in latter days, they were in Stevenage, so it was a bit of travelling.

MG: So you're going with the person claiming the benefit or seeking to get the benefit, representing them,

JB: Yeah, yes,

MG: that must be quite a nerve-wracking thing to do.

JB: It was because you had to get it right, but also you had to keep them calm beforehand and and you had to appear confident, so that they would have confidence in you. And after the first few you got to see people that you'd seen before, and you, as you walked in, you would know whether this was going to be a difficult one or not quite so difficult. I remember there was one, one lady on a tribunal quite a few times, who when people were asked if they could cook a meal, and they said they couldn't cook a meal, but surely you can put a piece of fish in the microwave. Yes, and they think, well, not everybody's got a microwave, and putting a piece of fish in the microwave, to me, is not cooking a meal.

MG: No, no.

JB: And you've got the feeling that it got better, but when I first started doing it, you got the feeling that some of the people really didn't understand what life was like for most of the people that were applying for these benefits. But it definitely got better.

MG: There's that old thing about walk a mile in my shoes...so you understand.

JB: absolutely, absolutely.

MG: So you were with the CAB for about 15 years that came to an end.

JB: When my dad died. My dad died, my daughter had a second baby who was premature. My mum needed looking after as well, and at that point, I, I sadly gave up. By that time I was I was already involved with the Hertfordshire Convalescent Trust, so I was still doing something, but not quite what I had been doing.

MG: Well, well, how brilliantly you anticipated my next question. [Janet laughs] Tell me a bit more about the Hertford Convalescence Trust.

JB: Well, the Hertfordshire Convalescent Trust has been going for quite a few years. I can't remember exactly now when it started, it started off in Victorian days as the Hertfordshire, now what was it? It was a convalescent home down in St Leonards-on-Sea started by clergymen in Hertingfordbury and it was I've actually got the books upstairs, which I keep meaning to put in the archives, where the visitors book. And one of the princesses, Victoria's daughter, went down there, and various other dignitaries and filled in, "We've seen the place, and it was, you know, we were well pleased", and one thing and another. So it had quite a high profile in the time, local organisations paid for beds and people could go there if they needed convalescence. There wasn't sure, following a surgery, following surgery, or following ill health.

And at one time, lots of people did need convalescence. But in I think it was early 80s, they had to sell the convalescent home. He had gone through the wars and all the rest of it, but they had to sell it because people weren't going on traditional convalescence with people being able to go abroad on holidays, one thing and another, people didn't necessarily want to go down to St Netherlands on sea, even though it's very nice down there. That wasn't where people were choosing to go. So the home was sold and for £250,000, and that £250,000 was invested, and the income from that investment has been used ever since to give people money to go on. What started off as convalescent, but now is more recuperative or help with help with holidays for people who are in need, again, mainly, mainly single mums or families where there's been ill health, or children with disabilities, all sorts of covering all sorts of people in the whole of Hertfordshire.

MG: That would be following a surgery,

JB: following surgery, or following ill health. And at one time, lots of people did need convalescence. But in, I think it was early 80s, they had to sell the convalescent home. It had gone through the wars and all the rest of it, but they had to sell it because people weren't going on traditional convalescence, with people being able to go abroad on holidays, one thing and another, people didn't necessarily want to go down to St Leonards-on-Sea, even though it's very nice down there. That wasn't where people were choosing to go. So the home was sold and for £250,000, and that £250,000 was invested, and the income from that investment has been used ever since to give people money to go on what started off as convalescent, but now is more recuperative or help with help with holidays for people who are in need, again, mainly, mainly single mums or families where there's been ill health, or children with disabilities, all sorts of covering all sorts of people in the whole of Hertfordshire.

MG: So this is sort of paying for a week stay in a bed and breakfast or something?

JB: Yeah, probably mainly a holiday camp or something like that. And as I say, that £250,000 pounds was invested. When I last looked at it, the investments were worth about £500,000 the income is around about £20,000 a year at the moment, which sounds quite a lot, but holidays are now much more expensive than they were when I was organising it. We used to give away £250, £350 a year, and that would get people a week's holiday in Butlins or something. I'm now the President of it, so I don't do the administration, but Martin Dudley, who's now the administrator, it's costing up to £1000 a time, and this is not a better holiday, it's just that the prices have gone up.

But the strange thing is, and this is something that most charities I know about are noticing, the applications are not as high as one would expect at the moment. And my theory is that because everybody is sort of in a bit of a mess, and you know, the finances aren't as good as they were, lots of people aren't able to have holidays. So if your neighbour isn't having a holiday, you perhaps don't think about having a holiday. But when things are going well for everybody else, those that unfortunately aren't able to fund holidays for themselves, start thinking, well, I'd like a holiday. And then the applications go up and over the years I've been involved with it, they do go up and down, you know, year on year. And you can never be sure, but as long as they're fulfilling a need, then that's, that's what they're there for. But I do feel, with most charities, there is money available, if only we can get the right people to know about it, the right or the organisations that are dealing with people mainly they're understaffed, or they overworked. They don't have the time to think about things like holidays, which is a great shame, really.

MG: Somebody going into Citizens Advice today to talk about benefits and benefit payments, if CAB were better resourced, if they had a bit more they could say, it doesn't solve the issue about your benefits payment, but at least it gives you a break, a [indistinct]…

JB: Exactly. And I do try to tell if I go into any schools, I do try to tell the schools, and I try to tell Vicars that I meet as well, just just to let people and we do, we do mail shots every so often, but with most things, you know, social workers at one time all knew about us, but many of them have moved on, and things don't get passed on. So it's a shame, but it's just a way. Yeah, fact of life, if you've got the time and the energy to actually go out and and promote it more, then perhaps there would be more need for it.

MG: So you apply one year for a holiday, and you are successful. Does that? Is that your one?

JB: We try to say no more than every three years. But if there's been exceptional circumstances, then we will. We wouldn't do two in one year. But, you know, we might do two years running, if suddenly somebody becomes terminal, or they've had a bereavement, or whatever. You've got to look at every case individually, I think, which, of course, then takes me on to the Hertford [indistinct], ancient charities of Hertford, which, [laughs]

MG: I have to say, I know, there is this mystery about the Ancient Charities of Hertford, and nobody i've ever spoken to has ever been able to explain to me what they really are, how they, they work. They just seem to be a collection of things that are kept in a cupboard somewhere and brought out...

JB: No, no, no, no, no!

The Ancient Charities of Hertford was set up as the Ancient Charities of Hertford some years ago by Jill Geal, and it brought together a number of smaller charities. I was involved at the time with the charity of Ann Dimsdale. I can't even think what the other charities were, but there were a number of small charities in Hertford, most of which Jill was involved with. And she felt that if we brought them into one, it would make a bigger pool of money, and perhaps we could help more people. So we meet three or four times a year, but in between meeting, we keep in touch by email. So if somebody needs something and they apply for it, emails go around to all the trustees, and if we feel it's something we can help with, then people will get help.

Again, people are only getting £250-£350 maximum, but it will buy carpet for a room. It will buy a cooker, especially with the help of the Frith family, who have a second-hand shop where they sell reconditioned white goods, which is wonderful. So we know, we get to know people that that can help. But quite often, if people have just got a need for one little thing, it's difficult to find the money. But if you know there's a charity that can, can actually come up with it quickly. We don't make people wait until the next meeting, which is why email is so useful, so people can be made aware. And the people at the food bank know about the ancient charities, so if they meet people who need something, we've funded a fridge-freezer, I think, and a cooker. And the more the charities work together, and the pantry up at Sele Farm, I think they've put people forward, but if the charities all work together, then it makes a great deal of difference, and much more can be done.

MG: So if I'm the individual who needs a carpet or a fridge, do I get in contact with the Ancient Charities? Or is there? It's like a portal?

JB: We like people to have been put forward, again by somebody like a social worker or a church or just somebody that knows the person. I don't know that we've turned people down if that's not the way it's happened. But the applications go through the town, the town council. Because they do, they do, they do the forms. But then we have our own administrator, Libby Shillito, who deals with the, the actual sourcing of the of the goods, and one thing and another.

MG: So if I was in Citizens Advice Bureau. And amongst other things, it became clear that I needed some more carpet or fridge, whatever they would suggest...

JB: They would get in touch, then the form would get filled in, and then hopefully the money would go to the people. And we do work quite closely with CAB and carers in Hertfordshire. I think of all the different charities more so than statutory organisations, really.

MG: So I mean, I mean, what's coming across is this huge interplay, lots of conversations between different charities, the involvement of churches, involvement of people. How formal is all this? Or is this an element of informality about it? Or,

JB: I think there's quite a lot of informality because we tend to know each other, but forms have to be filled in, and details have to be given. So you know, there is a formality to it, but it's good that people know about each other. With the food bank, when people came to the food bank, and hopefully, still, if they've got a specific problem, we try and make sure they know which agencies, which organisations can help them and pass on information. We don't pass their information on, but we give them the information to go and visit different places. You have to have confidentiality. You can't pass people's information on without their say-so.

MG: So you've been heavily involved in the community. I just wonder whether you ever thought about standing to become a councillor, or…

JB: I thought about it once or twice. I was encouraged by Peter Ruffles on a number of occasions, but I felt that I was better doing what I was doing. I'm not a political person of any of any real persuasion, and I felt that what I was doing was better from a non political point of view.

MG: It doesn't seem to have held you back from being recognised for the work and the contribution.

JB: Well no, which is really quite amazing to me. [laughs]

MG: I think one of the things that you share with Peter Ruffles as being a free person of Hertford.

JB: Absolutely. That was the biggest shock I've ever had. [Laughs] Well, one day, the Town Clerk, Joseph, rang me and said, if you're passing by sometime, can you pop in, I want to have a word with you. And I thought, well, why can't you have a word with me on the phone? Okay, never mind. I'll go in. My immediate reaction was, what does he want me to do now? And I went in and he said, No, no, I don't want you to do anything but, but the Town Council said they'd like to put you forward to become Freeman of the Town. And I'm 'Really?!' he said, you and one other, but I can't tell you who.

And I thought, I know who that is then, and it was just wonderful, absolutely wonderful to, especially with Peter Ruffles. I've always had a great admiration of Peter Ruffles and all he's done. And when I was at the CAB, people would come in, and if you couldn't actually help them with their problem, as they went out the door, they'd say, Oh, well, I'd have to go and see Mr. Ruffles then. [Laughs] But it was, it was, it was really quite humbling to be given something like that. Mind you, they won't even let me park for free in the town [laughs]

MG: Tell us a bit more about that.

JB: What does that actually entitle you to? Can you take your your sheep across the bridge, across The Wash? I said to Joseph, what does it entitle me to? He said, nothing, but you're Free! [laughs]. And I've got a nice a nice little plaque, and my name is on a plaque in the in the town, in the castle, and the Duke of Wellington is at the top, and Peter and I are down the bottom, and all sorts of worthy people are in between. So it's really quite something.

MG: Excellent. One of the other things that you are involved in is the St Albans diocese. I think you're on the church and society. I

JB: I was, I've come off that now. For many years, I was on the Board, what was the Board for Church and Society became the Board for Mission and Ministry because of my desire to be involved in in, you know, what goes on in society. And that was, that was really the reason for it was the Board for Social Responsibility originally, and that was very much my, my leaning over the years, things changed. It's now become the Board for Mission and Ministry, every bit as important, but it doesn't have quite the same ideas, and the things that they are doing. More church based, really, than community based. Oh, other churches are in the community anyway, but somehow I felt it was probably time to come out of that. But I'm very involved with the local church, obviously, and do all I can there to be involved with the community. So

MG: I was just wondering in terms of diocese, because the diocese covers Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire and bits...

JB: and Barnet.

MG: That might have given you a view of how Hertford compares with other places.

JB: Oh, very much. So, yeah, it's very interesting, because, I mean, we, we multi-faith in… Hertford is something we don't really come across very much more so now than we ever did. But people in Luton, I'm involved with the charity in Luton called Grassroots, which is, it's a Christian organisation which is involved in multi faith work. And when I go over there, it's so different. And you hear all sorts of awful stories about the things that happen between the different faiths. Over there, they're working brilliantly together. And I think people in Hertford ought to know about that, because we don't really know anything about people of other faiths. So that's important, the fact that there are pockets of deprivation, real deprivation within the diocese, there are also pockets of real affluency. And you know, it is very different.

MG: And is Hertford affluent?

JB: Hertford's got bits of both. I think Hertford has got bits of both. It's, it's looking at some places, I wouldn't, I won't name any, because that wouldn't be fair, but there are some places that you do feel they've got a lot more deprivation, and there are other places that perhaps are a lot more affluent, but I think Hertford sort of is midway, because we do have some areas that where people really are struggling, and we have other areas where people aren't struggling as much as they were. Yeah, they might be....so little microcosm, I suppose, really, isn't it? Hertford, it's got all sorts of bits.

MG: I mean, you've been heavily involved with All Saints’ Church for a long, long time. Yeah, and All Saints has recently acquired a new vicar [Simon Cutmore]. I can't imagine that you were backward in saying to the new vicar, come let me show you around Hertford.

JB: Oh, the morning he came for his interview, I took him for a ride [laughs]. We rode around the whole of the parish so that he could see the big houses, the small houses, the social housing, the old, elderly residential whatever to show, to show him just exactly what was there and the big schools and one thing and another. So I think he found that quite helpful, and he's doing a great job getting out into the community.

MG: I've got the sense he is using, opening up the church as a facility for the town as well.

JB: Well, yeah, I mean, the church is now open, six days a week, for anybody just to come in. And if there's anybody there, then, you know, they can talk to us. And it's quite interesting, the number of people that have they are coming in. And I have to say that I do feel the Church of England did quite the wrong thing at COVID when they closed all the churches down, because I think they would have been a good place for many people would have felt a lot of got a lot of comfort from going into churches. But people, it feels as though people are looking for something in life at the moment, and a number of people are finding what they're looking for within the church. And we want to help people on their way.

MG: So is that a sign that church congregations are beginning to grow again?

JB: We had a really good congregation at Easter. We had the biggest Easter congregation we've had for a number of years. And we are getting a good regular congregation. It's not huge, but it's not tiny. And of course, when you look at Hertford, the number of churches we have in Hertford, if you add together all the people that are going to all the different churches, there is quite a Christian presence in Hertford.

MG: And is that helping in terms of getting sources of volunteers, and it's coming back to the centre volunteers for things like The Food Trust and CAB and so on. Because my sense of it is, it's difficult at the moment for people to find the time to commit to volunteering and so on. But with that's just my perception, or whether that's also something,

JB: Well, we don't. I mean, the food bank, we have lots of volunteers, and we get people wanting to volunteer a lot of the time. The thing I personally feel is that it's easy to get people to volunteer for something once a week, once a month, whatever, but it's not so easy to get people to commit to being a treasurer or a secretary, something that takes more time and that has responsibility. And it's the same in the church, lots of churches can't find treasurers. Some don't have Church Wardens, or only have one when they should have two. I don't know, I don't know why that is, whether people say they haven't got the time. I know full well my dear husband was, has been Treasurer of All Saints since time immemorial, I think anyway, over 30 years. And during that 30 years, he was working in the city, he was going away on business, but he still found the time to be the Treasurer. Whereas today, we all had different priorities, different loyalties, families are more fragmented which means that people at the weekend perhaps want to go further afield to see their families. Life just changes, unfortunately or it all depends where you're coming from, really, doesn't it?

MG: It does. Um, also, if I remember correctly, you're also a lay reader. How long was that? How long have you been?

JB: I am. 20 years. [Phone rings] 20 years. Yeah, 20 years, this year in March, at All Saints, all of that time. But I also take services in other churches. At Waterford and Stapleford, and Watton-At-Stone and Aston, mainly because I'm friends with the vicar there, and she needed help. But I have taken services in other places as well, and I can take funerals, and do take quite a number of funerals, which is a real privilege, actually, to be asked to take somebody's funeral. You get to know the family, perhaps a bit more than you would, and you're supporting them at a time when they need a lot of support, and ensuring that the funeral is the best it can be for the person that they are, that they are saying goodbye to. So when they say, is it alright if we have this, and is it alright if we have that, my answer is always, what do you want? Yes, you know, what would they have liked. So if, the if at the end of the funeral, wish me luck as you wave me goodbye, is the piece of music or New York, New York, whatever, but it, you know, it has to be what people feel comfortable with.

MG: I think I'm running out of questions. Is there anything that we really ought to have a chat about that? That hasn't come out already?

JB: I don't think so. I did work for WRVS for quite a while as well. Didn't mention that? [Laughs] Yes, well, I started off doing Meals on Wheels, as everybody did in those days, and then I did a stints on the coffee bar in the Hertford County Hospital. But then the person that was organising Meals on Wheels either had to give it up or had to move away or something else. Cath Fielder. Her husband was the guy whose name is now immortalised in Hatfield Poly the Fielder Centre, yeah.

And I took over running Meals on Wheels in East Herts. I think it also might have been gone a bit further for a while. So that was quite interesting going around seeing how people were doing it in different places. And at the time, I used to take my children with me. They were quite young, delivering meals on wheels. And it did them the world of good to see how different people lived, and, you know, they were polite to people, and no matter who they were, they'd go in and they'd be polite to people, and people would be so pleased to see young children. And a lot of the time, I think this is something that people don't realise how much the elderly love to see children and working together can be really important. I remember, years ago, we were in Romania, and we went to a centre that was a centre for the elderly, but in the afternoon, because the children only went to school in the morning, the children went to the same centre, and you saw them sitting at a table with the older people, showing the children how to do things.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure it would work quite the same in this country. We might have more stringent rules about who can do what, but it worked, and the children were happy and the older people were happy, and it was a real family atmosphere. And when we used to do Christmas alone, if any children came along, and not often, but sometimes we had children, and again, it was lovely for the older people to see little ones.

MG: Human contact across generations.

JB: Absolutely, absolutely.

MG: It's a broader kind of family.

JB: Yeah, yeah. I'm also a Governor, a Governor at Aston School. And I take assemblies at Aston School, which obviously is not in Hertford, but it's just up the road from Hertford, from Hertford, and I think that's why I like talking to children. I'm quite used to being in the school there, so I'm happy to go in the schools in Hertford and talk to the children, because they listen, they listen, and they're interested and they have interesting questions, because their brains work very well, and they're used to learning, and they, they soak things up. And…

MG: they also work differently. They're not sometimes I think, as we get older, we get more trammelled, and our thought processes go down the same particular roads or paths and so on, and then they're a bit more free in their thinking sometimes...

JB: Yeah, yeah. We were once asked, we had some children in to All Saints. We were talking about Easter, and this one young lady said, do you think Jesus really did rise again, or do you think it was just that so many people imagined they saw him? She was about eight. Really interesting that what's going on in their heads. You've got a lot to learn from children. A lot to learn.

MG: Yes. Completely agree with that. I think I've been very lucky [Janet laughs] to have an hour of your time and to see you sitting still, I supposed you won't be, yes

JB: No, it's good to sit still, I don't do it very often.

MG: So, anything else I don't know about you that we should commit to the record?

JB: I don't think so...

MG: Well, that's lovely. So thank you so very much.

JB: Thank you for asking me.

MG: Yes, and we're also hoping that you'll become one of our interviewers.

JB: I do hope so,

MG: and that will help broaden the range of knowledge about Hertford and what goes on, etc. So thank you very much indeed.

JB: My pleasure. My pleasure.

END OF RECORDING