Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Baynes, Harold (O2011.7) |
| Interviewee | Harold Baynes (HB) |
| Interviewer | Trish Goldsmith (TG), Peter Ruffles (PR) |
| Date | 02/08/2011 |
| Transcriber by | Geoff Cordingley (using Otter AI for initial transcript) |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O2011.7
Subject: Harold Baynes (HB)
Date: 2nd August 2011
Venue: Firwood Avenue, St. Albans
Interviewer: Trish Goldsmith (TG), Peter Ruffles (PR)
Transcriber: Geoff Cordingley (using Otter AI for initial transcript)
Typed by: Geoff Cordingley
************** unclear recording
[discussion] untranscribed material
italics editor’s notes
The recording begins with some social talk which has not been transcribed.
TG: Well, I'll do the official bit, which is, ah, ahm, it's Tuesday, 2nd August 2011. We're at the home of Harold Baynes in Firwood Avenue in St. Albans and we've come to talk about, ahm, his days at Balls Park amongst other things, but anyway, it's lovely to be here. And, ahm, perhaps, Harold, you could start by telling us a little bit about your sort of background, your childhood, your education and the time leading up to when you came to Har'ford.
HB: Yes, right. Well, I was an only child at home and therefore benefited from every possible opportunity that could come my way. My home was in West Midlands, in Cannock, in Staffordshire and I went to secondary school at Queen Mary's in Walsall which, ah, was at the time and still is, I think, one of the best schools you could ever wish for, anywhere. Ahm, as I say I was an only child and therefore benefited from enormous amount of privileges. My parents were working class but, ah, generous in every conceivable way and, ahm, life was fun.
TG: And when did you get interested in languages.
HB: Ah, well that was not until secondary school. I went to Queen Mary's School in Walsall and, ah, French just clicked. It made sense from the moment we started and I never looked back on it and so that was a great privileged because it meant that you had something that you knew you wanted to do and always wanted to do.
And so from Walsall, Queen Mary's, I went to University in Durham and I was in University College which was in the castle of Durham.
TG: How lovely.
HB: So you can't imagine a more privileged set up.
(TG laughs)
HB: The cathedral as your long-distance view and the castle and I had a room in the keep of the castle which was just wonderful.
TG: There's not many people who can say that.
HB: No! (Laughter)
TG: And were there any other languages or was it just French or did you learn other languages?
HB: It was strictly French, because being wartime, of course, all our German teachers were interned and so the opportunity to learn German disappeared almost for a matter of two or three
years, ahm, which really I regret because although I've picked up bits and pieces, I don't speak German at all.
TG: So you left university and then what happened?
HB: Well then, I took, I moved into teaching. I'd taken a full degree and then I'd taken, in French, and then I did a year's teacher training and went straight away into schools. My first school was in Birmingham, George Dixon School, an all-boys’ school. And it was a wonderful experience because it was a well-known school but at the same time it drew from, it drew children from the normal streets of Birmingham. It wasn't a privileged school.
TG: It was a good cross-section.
HB: You got a very good cross-section of youngsters and, ah, I loved it there, all boys school as I say. But I, well I, it was the first school I'd taught in and so I didn't know what I was missing by, by not teaching boys and girls. But then, after that, I went into mixed schools and finally ended up in Hertford training French teachers at the college of education at Balls Park.
TG: And what year was that?
HB: Oh, gosh.
TG: Approximately.
HB: I think it was 1965. I think it was '65, I came down south.
TG: And how long, I don't know much about Balls Park, how long it been established as a training college?
HB: Oh, very difficult for me to say, because, no I think I can say because the principal was Miss Wingate. Now Miss Wingate was the sister of Ord Wingate who was in charge of the Chindits and I think she ran the college a little bit like he ran the Chindits, you know.
(Laughter)
HB: She was a wonderful character. It was at that time an all-male college with a female principle but then little by little, ahm, there was a fair mix of men and women on the staff and we ultimately became a men and women teacher training college.
TG: Presumably, most of the students would go out into schools around Har'ford?
HB: Oh, very large numbers, well everybody, well to a wider area, yes. They. they did their training in the, Hertford and so we benefited from the Hertfordshire schools' system because it was a perfect system for learning how to become a teacher.
TG: Yes, in teaching practice, presumably, they would go out.
HB: Exactly, all over the county.
TG: And a teacher training course at that time was, what, three years?
HB: Yes.
TG: So they would do three teaching practices during that time.
HB: Yes
TG: And how far from Har'ford would they spread?
HB: Oh, throughout Hertfordshire,
TG: really,
HB: because they were about 120 students in each year and obviously, you, you, especially when it came down to specialism subjects you had to find the schools that were capable of benefiting the students. And not all students learnt their best French in schools.
(Laughter)
TG: So, ahm, did the students live in at Balls Park?
HB: Oh, yes.
TG: Yes, so they were all, pretty well all residents or were there a few…
HB: There were, there was a sprinkling of mature students who were, of course, from Hertfordshire. And, ahm, in fact, I met one of them the other day and we were reminiscing about this and ahm…
Yes, for the most part there were a predominant number of girl students, a few males and the mature students.
TG: So there was training for everything from nursery to secondary.
HB: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, very little secondary, in fact I was privileged as French wasn't taught in primary schools. (Laughs)
TG: Do drink your coffee.
HB: Yes, yes, right.
TG: I've got down here the general institutional tone of the college. I get the impression that it was a very happy school. Maybe you can enlarge on that, a little.
HB: It was a very happy place. The principal, when I went there, was Miss Wingate. And she was, oh, she had a vision of possibilities, which was remarkable. She was a superb principal. Not least in that she didn't try and do everything herself. She, she allowed the experts to deal with their own expertise. And that is quite something in a college, because you see so many principals who try to do everything. But she was really first class.
TG: So it was a good team.
HB: It was an excellent team. Yes. Largely dominated by women at that time. I think there were at one time, I think there were six men on the staff, and there must have been about forty-odd women.
TG: Yes. And how many in the French department?
HB: Students, you mean?
TG: No, I meant?
HB: Well, I set it up and for a little while I was on my own. And then I suppose I had a fellow came and joined me. I would say, it was a long time ago, but I would say after about a year ago, no,
maybe two years, we added to the staff, and then we were able to take in, by that time men and women, and especially the mature men, because they came from the locality,
TG: Right! Yes. Ahm, so was it a good place, I mean, in view of sort of accommodation and the rooms and the facilities, was it?
HB: First class. It was, it was in Balls Park itself, which is a magnificent house. My French department was on the very top floor at the back of the house looking right across the grounds.
And yes, it was an extraordinarily happy place. Very, if I say easy-going, it wasn't slack. But it was, nobody was dominating it. And saying everything's got to be done in this way, or.... So it was, it was a very, good place to be going into.
TG: And what kind of backgrounds did the students come from? Was it again, a complete mix, or…?
HB: It was a complete mix. But of course, all secondary, they were all by and large grammar schools, because that time, French wasn't taught in secondary modern schools.
TG: That's right, yeh. I mean, students going into teacher training had to have I think it was five Os and two As. [O levels and A levels]
HB: That's right. Yes. Yes, that's right. So by and large, it was an aca.. academic background and very comfortable level of students, you know. You didn't have anybody who stood out. You had some characters,
(TG laughs)
…but you didn't have anybody who stood out as being brilliant or dreadful.
TG: No, it was it was a good mix.
HB: Yes.
TG: Going out into schools, presumably you'd go out and visit the students when they were on teaching practice.
HB: Oh, yes. Yes.
TG: I mean, can you tell us a little bit about that? I mean, do you have any particular memories or, was it an enjoyable experience?
HB: It was always enjoyable yes. It was always enjoyable because by and large, the schools appreciated the level that we were putting into the students. And, of course, at that time, there were very few primary schools with any French. So I was feeding the grammar schools and the secondary modern schools, which in a way, ahm, was a difference from most other subjects. Because English, Maths, everybody else was teaching into primary or secondary.
TG: So, did your visits include Broxbourne School?
HB: Yes, indeed. And, which also, was where my, all four of my children went to Broxbourne School, and there they knew Peter.
TG: everybody knows Peter.
(Laughter)
HB: And everybody knows Peter.
PR: I was telling Trish on the way over Carol was in my Sunday school class.
HB: Oh, yes.
PR: When she was doing the primary school before coming…
HB: Oh, was she really about? I didn't remember that.
PR: And we had the class in what is now Beckwith's shop?
HB: Yes, yes.
PR: The Sunday school was in the main, St. Nicholas Hall. That's right. Yes, there were rooms off and the classroom that I was given was above the shop. And so that would have been? Yes, that would have been the early 60s.
HB: Yes, 65. That wasn't a French department at Balls Park and I opened it and got it going. And..
PR: I think, Trish, your question about the nature of the schools in half, Harold, at one point said that Balls Park was fortunate to have the Hertfordshire schools' system as it were. Was it not like that, like Hertfordshire across the country?
HB: Oh, no, not at all. You had some authorities were the people in the authorities thought they knew more about schools than the people teaching in the schools. Whereas in Hertfordshire, there was a generous, generous, allowing people to exploit their, their skills, and not trying to interfere and from a central education point of view, trying to make them all the same. And, ah, well, you know, yourself, that Broxbourne School was a first class school by any standards. It was generous minded. Its principles were broad minded. And later on, all my four children went there. And there can't be a better recommendation.
(Laughter)
TG: I mean, so you wouldn't have gone out so much into the villages because they wouldn't have had secondary schools.
HB: That's right. Except that, as a matter of principle, we weren't allowed to stay simply within our subjects.
TG: Right.
HB: And although all my background had been secondary school, Miss Wingate was very, very keen that because it was French, I should be involved with the, with primary work as well as secondary work. She wouldn't have a teacher cutting themselves, a lecturer cutting themselves off from a part of the education system. So I went, went to primary schools all over the county. Yes, yes.
TG: Any that you particularly remember?
HB: I remember the ones because my own children went to Morgan's Walk was the, was the school in Hertford at that…
TG: Was John's Stinton there then?
HB: Yes. Yes. He was the head.
TG: He lives in France now.
HB: Does he. I didn't know that.
TG: He comes back but his daughter is in France as well.
HB: All right. Yes. He was a splendid, hello, most enjoyable person to get to know.
TG: It was very happy school.
HB: Yes, it was a very happy school. So when we first went there, the children were Peter and Carolyn Peter were in Morgans Walk School, which was his school, and rosemary was in the infant school which was across the fields. I can't remember Its name.
TG: Chalk Dell.
PR: Chalk Dell. Indeed. Yes. Chalk Dell. Yes, no distance from Morgans Walk but across the fields. That way, yes, it was Chalk Dell.
PR: So were you living at 135 Ware Road?
HB: Yes.
PR: But you chose and you were able to choose more than some distance?
HB: Yes. There was no, no question, but that you could go to, send your children to any school that you chose. And of course, I was very fortunate because all my colleagues at Balls Park knew the schools. And they would say to me, don't touch such and such a school, but make sure you get to this one. And the other thing was that John Stinton had such a good reputation for being a first class head allowing his teachers to get on with the job and not interfering. It was, it was a very happy setup. Yes.
TG: And he would have been a neighbour of yours as well, I think, wouldn't he? Because they lived in Ware Road. Maybe you didn't know.
HB: I don't think he did then. No, I think he lived at that time, I don't know he might have done . There was .... I'm sorry, it was so long ago. I don't remember the detail of it.
TG: Yes. He lived along, but not far from Caxton Hill, you know, on that side of the road.
HB: Yes. Yes, that's right. Yes. I remember where he lived. Because of course, he had youngsters as well.
TG: Russell and…
HB: I couldn't have told you that.
TG: I can't remember his daughter's name, but it will come back to me.
HB: Yes. Yes. Yes. And I couldn't have told you that.
TG: So anyway, right. So so anybody else you remember from Ware Road area? I mean, neighbours or?
HB: Well, I guess I remember them. We had we had very good neighbours, actually. Very kind neighbours who were very generous minded when it came to four children coming to live next door to them.
(TG Laughs)
But happily 135, Ware Road, had good walls, and we kept the sound at home, I think for the most part.
TG: And was Leila working.
HB: Well, she was she was very much running home. And of course, Martin wasn't at school when we first went to. Yes. Oh, yes. She, she was very much involved. And it was only later on when they were, I think out of sec, primary school, all in secondary school, that she went back to work. She was a social worker. And was a member of the team of social work at Broxbourne. And, ahm, she was she was very happy working.
TG: And that all worked quite well.
HB: Yes. And of course it meant that she never drove at that time. So the children used to go down by bus. And, and so did she. (Laughs)
TG: Any sort of repercussions from the fact that you know, it was just after the war and sort of, or even when you first went to Balls Park? Were there any? I mean, '65 it was long enough afterwards there weren't any sort of prohibitions, I wouldn't have thought, at that…
HB: There weren't any at all. And of course, we had, we had French exchanges as well, so that we encouraged and Miss Wingate was very much European minded. She, she encouraged as much involvement with European…
TG: Yes. So where would you exchange with? I mean, from, different schools will exchange with schools in any particular area of France or? I mean, I know Sele School got involved with Evron.
HB: Yes.
TG: But that was at a later stage.
HB: Yes. I would have said it was much later. That was because…
TG: It was twenty years now since they Is that so?
HB: Is that so.
TG: Yes, It might be 25. It might be 25.
HB: Yes, because it wasn't, it wasn't common to have languages taught in secondary modern schools at that time.
TG: Right.
HB: It was, it was the privilege of the grammar schools. Nearly all almost entirely. I mean, I wouldn't say there weren't exception.
TG: And Sele was a secondary modern.
HB: And Sele was a secondary modern, Yes.
TG: So, yes. Peter, anything else to add?
PR: Well, I'm still lingering along Ware Road? Maisie Ditton, Yes, she lived in Fairfax Road.
HB: She lived in Fairfax Road at the bottom end of Fairfax Road and we lived at the Ware Road corner of a…
PR: I mentioned Maisie because she made a tape like Harold's and so, like Harold is doing now. So in a way, listeners to this archive in 50 years’ time may like a reminder that a geographical neighbour was Maisie.
HB: Yes.
PR: Did you come across her other areas?
HB: Not really because, ahm, well.
TG: The choral society?
HB: Yes. She was in the choral society?
TG: One of the founder members, I think.
HB: Yes, I think she was. But, I mean, we knew her and we spoke to her, but we didn't, we weren't personal friends with her.
PR: Yes, I think she'd make sure of that. Maisie had many, many contacts and regarded other people very warmly, and
HB: Yes, yes.
PR: But she herself was…
TG: Quite a… she was a private person.
PR: Closed in lots of ways.
HB: Yes. Yes. And we simply used to see her striding out first thing in the morning, first of all with the dog and then on her own on her way to work. Yes.
PR: And sometimes I remember Ama Maynard, who was also Hertford Choral, a long time connection at church, thinking that Maisie was losing it, because as she walked along Ware Road, she'd be jabbering away to herself,
HB: but she wasn't losing it.
PR: She was learning the lines of a play.
HB: Yes. She was reciting the role. She was very keen on amateur dramatics.
TG: Hertford Amateur Operatic and Dramatic Society, yes.
PR: And, and she also, I'm sorry to say this Harold, but she has beaten you on beverages because while you've offered us coffee, Maisie offered the decanter.
HB: Oh, my goodness.
(Laughter)
TG: At 11 o'clock in the morning.
(Further Laughter)
PR: It was probably late afternoon. Yeah, and shamefully for St. Andrew's Church reputation, only two of our archive of tapes which is 400 strong, have the bottle gurgling away, one was the Maisie tape and the other was Jim O'Smotherley. Do you remember, Jim at church?
HB: Oh, Yes, I do. Yes. It's a name I've not thought of for a long time.
PR: Well Jim got in such a state of pre-recording nerves, that it was necessary to have a steadier when the tape began to roll. So this is St. Andrew's congregation’s contribution.
HB: Yes.
PR: It's much more respectable in St. Albans on a Tuesday morning.
(Laughter)
PR: Now where are you, Trish, with your…?
TG: I was going to say, a I've got a list here of, that someone's done, a bit of, sort of people that we might speak to who were at Balls Park. Yes, If I read the list out, you can tell me whether you knew them and whether you have any memories. One is Gerry Booker.
HB: Of course. Yes. I knew him very well. Indeed. We were very good friends, Gerry.
TG: Because it's still around Har'ford.
HB: I'm sure he must be yes.
TG: And Sheila Pettman.
HB: Yeah. She? Oh, yes. She was. She came on the staff after me. And I remember her coming. She was in, in the art department. And I don't know what I remember about her. But I certainly remember her as a colleague.
TG: Her grandfather is the famous Edgar Pettman, who's arranged quite a few of the Christmas carols that we sing.
HB: Oh, really!
TG: You often see arranged, Edgar Pettman. I think her grandfather or her great grandfather.
HB: Really? I didn't know that.
TG: Bob Horner?
HB: He used to live out in the in one of the villages. And yes, I remember him very well. He was very popular. He was in the Education Department.
TG: Monica Coleman was also Education, she was…
HB: Yes, she was. I knew her less well, but yes, I remember that name.
TG: John Bantick.
HB: Oh, yes, of course. Yes.
TG: I know him through singing.
HB: Yes, that's right.
TG: And I hadn't realised he taught it at Balls Park.
HB: Yes, he did. Yes. Yes.
TG: He used to conduct Welwyn Choral Society.
HB: That's right. Yes. But the the person who really was the musician at those part was Hilaire Kelynack.
TG: And he used to conduct
HB: And he used to conduct, yes.
TG: and he used to conduct the Choral Society.
HB: Yes.
TG: Of course, I never knew him
HB: You didn't. Yes, he was a delightful all-rounder.
TG: But I heard very good reports of Kelynack.
HB: Yes. Yes.
PR: He died fairly recently.
HB: Oh, did he?
PR: I think he was 90, would that fit?
HB: Oh, well, that would fit? Absolutely. Yes.
PR: Cliff or Clifton Kelynack.
HB: Yes. Yes.
PR: Grammar School teaching as well.
HB: Absolutely. Yes. While he was at the boys’ grammar school, of course for a long time.
TG: Was he at Richard Hale?
HB: Yes.
PR: Yes. Succeeded Kenneth Leaper, who was a St Albans resident and Ron Burrows, who became an ordained priest. And he's about to retire. But that was the succession there the grammar school teaching situation and people then went on to do other…
HB: Yes.
TG: I've got Carol Bantick as well. Presumably she was…
HB: Oh, yes. That's right. She was.
PR: What was, I mean, did you have a common room chat? Oh,
HB: Yes. Oh, we spent hours talking to one another. Yes, because of the nature of teacher training at that time, you had your, your subject area, but everybody was involved with passing on or initiating the skills of teaching, not, not a subject, but just how to handle children. How to keep broad-minded about education generally and not to get into a rut and Balls Park was very good.
Our principal was Miss Wingate. Now she was Ord Wingate's sister. Orde Wingate, as I said before, was the leader of the Chindits. She, she was a tough character, but she was tough in a very gentle way. She would never force her view on you. But she would challenge your view and look for you to challenge hers. And this made for a very, very, good setup within the college.
PR: Did the students recognise her qualities?
HB: I'd have said the students would have been a bit scared of her because she was, not that she was at all ferocious, but she was formidable. And when you're 18, you, you, you're not going to challenge somebody as obviously in charge as Monica Wingate was.
PR: I think we need a description of her physical bearing. We've got from miserable as a characteristic as it were, but was she a large and dominating woman?
HB: No, she wasn't large. She was slender. She was, but she was she a… she had a will of iron. She wasn't Orde Wingate’s sister for nothing. And Orde Wingate ran the Chindits. And she ran the college.
PR: What about, we're talking about liberal times for students.
HB: Yes, very.
PR: I mean, how, as a principal of a college in charge of the moral welfare of the students, what would her attitude have been, to say the fornication, that to the things that young people would be pushing out to do, because…?
HB: Well, I think she was very generous minded because you see, it was an all-girls' college. And she saw very, very early that this wasn't good either for the students or for the for the staff. And so she introduced male students, first of all as mature students. And we took in a number of people who were swapping jobs and trained adults who were very much older than me at the time but who were accepting the opportunity to get into education. It was a, it was a post war period. I know it was 20 years after the war, but it did carry on. Yes. Yes.
PR: Ah, splendid. And among your lecturing colleagues?
HB: Yes.
PR: You, you said you chatted and spent many hours talking to each other.
HB: Well, we had a wonderful common room. And it was, it was a real common room where you could both use it as a storeroom, you could use it as a conversation point. And frequently, I would find myself still sitting, chatting to people an hour after the end of the whole day, because, well, the women tended, especially the spinsters lived in the college, and they were keen to know people who lived in the community. And the opposite was true. We, we wanted to get to know these people, because they were very good academics. And we wanted to discover them as people.
PR: Yes, yes. That's, if we're trying to capture the spirit of the age, that's a very telling comparison. really, between many, I suppose there'll be things that people would say are still in 2011, similar.
HB: Yes.
PR: I mean, was it, for example, a smoke-filled common room, were people smoking in those days?
HB: Oh, yes, people were smoking, but it wasn't smoke-filled. The, the majority of the staff were women. Now, that doesn't mean say they weren't smokers. But, ahm, by and large, it was never an issue at all. Nobody smoked in a meeting, for example. A staff meeting: nobody, nobody would light up a pipe or hand around cigarettes. Largely because it was that period when people were just beginning to get techy about smoke atmospheres.
PR: And party politically was there a flavour?
HB: Oh, broad as broad as broad could be, yes. From extreme left wing, to extreme right wing. Yes. There was no, no question of it. And politics weren't banned in any way from the conversation. It was, it was a very open society within the, it was a wonderful group of people to work with. And you felt, you know, there were people who would, who'd had a full career of teaching. And I suppose at that time I was in my early 30s. Well there was a lot to learn from them. It was, it was a generous minded society altogether.
TG: It was, I mean, the mid 60s and so on was a wonderful time.
HB: Oh, it was
TG: because everything. A lot of the restrictions were going…
HB: Yes.
TG: Were becoming much more sort…
HB: ..generous minded, generous, yes. Yeah.
PR: If there's one word I'll take from this conversation
TG: generous, generous.
PR: Generosity. Yes. We refer to it in several ways. But
TG: Well, I was just thinking, I went to college in 66.
HB: Yes.
TG: And I can remember writing letters to people like the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, because it was just then becoming an issue about smoking and whether or not, there were still those who were saying it had nothing to do with lung cancer what so ever, because, as you were saying, people were getting techy. I can remember having to do an essay for health education, about the arguments as to why, you know, smoking was not a good idea and all this sort of thing. And I think now well, gosh, you know, surely people have to realise it didn't do them any good. But it was still a relative new idea.
HB: Oh, it was, it was still integral to the, to the population.
TG: Everybody smoked, you know.
PR: I heard what you said, Harold, about the women. You qualified it by saying it wasn't a guaranteed thing, but because of the presence of women, there may have been less inclination to fill the air with smoke.
HB: Well except that, you know, the vice principal smoked.
PR: I was going to ask you about the Vice Principal, in relation to Monica.
HB: Yes, yes. It wasn't an issue, at that time.
PR: At the Grammar School, Richard Hale as it now is, all male staff, it was literally a smoke-filled room.
HB: Yes. But by and large schools at that time, still had men's, men's staff rooms and women's staff rooms, didn't they?
PR: yes, yes.
HB: Because the whim, you know, especially Broxbourne School they had a, never the twain would meet as it were.
PR: No, we did at that period. It changed fairly quickly afterwards.
HB: Well, I think Ian Laydon was the factor that caused that to change, because…
PR: What about being a vice principal, to a principle of such strong presence and character? Was that a difficult role would you have said at Balls Park?
HB: No, I don't think so. Monica was, Monica Wingate was a tough cookie. She, and she came from, of course, the Wingate background was, was adventurous, right the way through, but she was generous minded. And she would never, she was forceful, but she would never stampede over anybody offering an alternative viewpoint. She would, she would say in very clipped terms: “Ah, well, you like to think that way, but I know better.”
(Laughter)
PR: Are there any other names on your list?
TG: Who was, the who was the vice principal at the time?
HB: Miss O'Sullivan.
TG: Oh, right.
HB: Nora O'Sullivan was the vice principal.
TG: I've got a Brian Franklin who I know.
HB: Oh, yes, Brian.
TG: Yvonne Liddington. But I think Yvonne is Yvonne Franklin
HB: Yvonne Franklin. Yes, that's right.
TG: I mean, did they meet at Balls Park?
HB: I presume so. Yes. She was a PE teacher. And he was now, Brian was a, was a biologist.
TG: All right. That's that's something I need to amend on here, then. I've got Doris Height.
HB: Yes, she was. She was very much the person who dealt with infant education. Yes.
TG: Olga Looms now. Oh, good.
HB: Yes, I don't remember. No.
TG: Dorothy Wilde Oh,
HB: She was the came after some, I'd been there some time, she came as the vice principal. Now she was a character. She was a Yorkshire woman. In some ways, I think she might have been a very lonely person, because she used to cut people off, and, and was, was brittle. But, but again, because of the circumstances of the staff room, she was accommodated.
TG: Marigold Austin.
HB: She, she was an art, an art teacher and a very fine one too
TG: I've got Harold Baines, but I think we know him.
HB: Yes, we know him.
TG: I've got Paul Gatlin. Yes.
HB: Paul Gatlin. He was a…he was, was actually taller than me. He was three inches taller than me.
TG: And Colin Harris,
HB: Yes, Colin Harris. He when came, he was very much into, what's the word I want. He was very conscious of the third world problems and the need to break into some first world situations to get them thinking sideways. And he made a great issue of that.
TG: He as into conservation as well. Sort of the green issues?
HB: Yes, yes, of course, the…
PR: The movement of Oxfam and Christian Aid, a new the newish when we're getting into fried. Yes. Just about and another big, wide opening. You forget the people in the 90s this decade, wouldn't have appreciated the energies behind some of these initial movements? Yes, yes. Christian Aid and third world awareness. We tend to take it for granted.
HB: for granted. But they were being set up for this period. Yes. Yes. Oh, another character who came and joined us he used to be at the grammar school was here that Hilaire Kelynack, of course, with music.
TG: Right. So was he that before John Bantick, or with John Bantick, or…
HB: John Bentick was only ever on the part time on the staff. And I would have said, with John Bantick, Hilaire was head of department. Well, when I first went there, I've forgotten her name, but there was a woman who was the head of music. And then she retired. And Hilaire became, took over and came from the boys’ grammar school, to Balls Park. Yes.
TG: So to sort of, to sort of round things off. I mean, basically, it was a happy time. Do you see many of the students now that I mean, you obviously met one recently that I mean, still do you keep in touch?
HB: No, I don't keep in touch with them, it was impossible rarely because, well, there were 15 to 20 students per year going through, and some of them have stood out. And you remember, you remember them and some of them became friends. The material students very often became friends.
TG: Because they'd be nearer to your age group.
HB: That's right. Yes. But it was a… it was the happiest place I've ever worked in.
TG: Happier than the schools you worked in?
HB: Oh, much. I mean, because there was no I mean, Monica Wingate was a wonderful principal. Paul Sangster did was the same.
TG: He took over from…
HB: He took over he took over Monica. And… But although she was sharp, and, and a bit forbidding in some ways. (Noise of tape stopping) Something wrong.
TG: The tape’s just stopped. (Trish turns the tape and restarts the recording)
HB: Oh, I see. Although Monica Wingate, as principal was very much in charge, and a little isolated, she'd got a generous side to her, and she loved her tipple. And so she would come back into the common room frequently at the end of the day. I think the last lecture finished at five. Well, we would frequently be still there at seven, having an aperitif and before we we went off to whatever, yes, yes. Oh, it was. It was a lovely place to work.
TG: What percentage of the lecturers lived in and what percentage of would you have just said?
HB: Oh, very few lived in.
TG: Very few.
HB: there was the vice principal lived there, the principal lived there. There were halls of residence and there was a resident member of staff in charge of each hall. But apart from that, we were all over Hertfordshire, really. It was it was quite the best environment I've ever taught him. It's not there anymore. No, it's not that
TG: And, of course, it's not there anymore, it's been converted into rather salubrious homes within a Parkland setting. Quite a place to live I should think.
HB: Absolutely. But you're not allowed in there unless you've got a million.
TG: Oh, really. I imagine so. Yes. Anything you wish to add, Peter?
PR: I mean there. Because you've turned the tape, it means we've really got to stop in 10 minutes, because they like us to do an hour and it means we've done three quarters.
HB: Have we really.
PR: yeah. Otherwise, it's too cumbersome. But I certainly would like to know, well, first, what it was what fatherhood was like, for you as an only child, and a brood of four, a very different household experience.
HB: Well, it was but yeah, you know, it doesn't come all at once, fortunately. (Laughs)
PR: Perhaps you could quickly tell us were Carol, Rosemary, Martin, Peter…?
HB: Yes. Yes, they were, they were wonderful youngsters, they were fairly good academically. We never had problems with homework or anything like that. They knew. And I think partly, it was because Leila, my wife and I were academic. And therefore it was natural in the household. People read. And, and so it was comparatively easy to persuade homework to be done and that sort of thing. Ah, what was the other thing?
TG: Where are they now?
HB: Well, Carol and Martin are both in Canada. Carol went over there with her job a long, long time ago. The inevitable happened she married, she met a Canadian. And she is probably the most Canadian housewife now you could wish to meet. They have a son, which is the little boy there on the left with the microphone. He's a singer.
And, ahm, Peter lives in Ealing. Peter's got his own firm, he's an architect. And he's got his own firm in London. And the three children, there are his children.
Rosemary is, lives in Milton Keynes and she's a primary school teacher. And her husband works for the government.
And Martin is also now in Canada, having been sent there for three years, but I should be amazed if he ever comes back, because they love it over there. And Martin's now got, this is Martin's little tribe of three children. Martin and Sam, Samantha, (laughs) Sam for short.
PR: Are you going to talk Hertford Choral and music?
TG: That will take us on quite a long time, I think because I mean, then. I mean, I have very happy memories of Harold being chairman of Hertford Choral Society. And, you know, setting up the big concerts as we called them in the Albert Hall, which grew out of a conversation in a pub somewhere probably.
HB: It did. It was, I forget the setup, but, there was a very, good advisor, who was, ah
TG: Ian Butler?
HB: Who?
TG: Ian Butler, no?
HB: Gosh, I don't remember his name.
TG: John Westcombe?
HB: John Westcombe. He was very good advisor indeed. And he opened the possibilities, you know, of what could be done. And I don't know how it came about. I said to, I think, it must, might have been Hilaire at the time.
TG: No, it would have been Derek.
HB: It would have been Derek, would it?
TG: Yes, it was sometime after I joined the choir.
HB: Ah right? Yes. Well, you could time it then. But certainly we sat down one day, you know, why don't we do something really big. It was while I was chairman. And as I said, you know, we could this Hertfordshire has got such a good reputation for music. If we could bring together a number of choirs and do a mass Hertfordshire event somewhere.
TG: Of course, it was a question of where, wasn't it?
HB: And he said, Well, what are we going to do? I said, Well, we don't do anything, if we don't aim high. Let's go for the Albert Hall. And so we did. And so we did and we did the Albert Hall concerts.
TG: The War Requiem.
HB: Yes. We did the War Requiem. We did it on Sunday, yes. I can't remember what year.
TG: He wrote a lovely book about it. Yes, yes. Yes. And how it all came about?
HB: Do you know, I haven't got that book.
TG: Haven't you? There are a number of around. We must, we must find one for you.
HB: I'd love to.
TG: Yes, it was and we worked with the Aeolian Singers.
HB: Yes, that's right. Yes. And we brought in all the Hertfordshire choirs.
TG: Herts Choirs it was know as.
HB: Yes, that's right. They went on for a year or two.
TG: I think after that, we did we did more than one concert.
HB: We certainly did. Yes. To do.
TG: What was the second one? Was that the Verdi?
HB: Oh, it could well have been.
TG: No I don't think so, Brahms, Mahler Eight!
HB: Mahler Eight! Yes, we did. Yes. Yes. I think we did. And David Chesterman comes to mind. He was involved with the charity we worked with.
TG: We worked with. Yes.
HB: And what was so good was, you've only got to say to Derek, how about so and so? Oh, it's worth a try. And, and it was, it really was worth
TG: Fires up ideas. Thinking on something. And that's why I like working with Derek because he'll fire off the ideas. As he was saying all he says I find the ideas you catch him and run with him. Which is great.
HB: Yes. But he also, he also warmed to this. And I mean, it was it was quite, it was quite a moment for him to conduct massed choirs of Hertfordshire
TG: As was pointed out to him by his mother, his grandmother had conducted at the Albert Hall as well.
HB: Had she really.
TG: I think that was the WI Choir.
(Laughter)
TG: But he said, you know, it just took him down a peg or two? (In a modified voice) 'Well of course your grandmother did that.'
HB: Yes, I didn't know that.
TG: He's now done it four times, now. And he's now talking about another one.
HB: Are they?
TG: Yes. It's in the early stages.
HB: Is he getting a good response from others?
TG: I've just heard from him that it is now being talked about because it all went very quiet. Because I think most of the people on that original committee of either retired from the choir or retired from life, really. (Laughs) And so I mean, it really needs I think, a completely fresh start. Because, you know, I think it has sort of almost run its course with the group that were involved.
HB: I can believe that yes.
TG: So I think it's probably a question of cranking up something. There is definitely some interest and it's a question of what we're going to do. But yes, last time, I had a meeting with Derek, about such…
HB: And there's so much music in our pitch, it seems to me, it's a shame not to capitalise on it and bring them all together.
TG: To get together. Yes, it is. Yes. So, yes, you've been instrumental in some very great things, Harold.
HB: (Laughs) Bright Ideas?
TG: Well, you know, it's worked and it's given a lot of people a lot…
HB: Yes, yes. Yes.
TG: Should we conclude there, do you think?
PR: Yes. We will meet with approval because we're just in the time.
TG: Just about within time perfectly. Might I have to switch off now.
PR: Oh, I like it to roll.
TG: I know you do.
PG: Harold there's a form I'll leave with you. Two sides. And you fill in as much as you want.
HB: Oh, yes, I see.
PR: Yes. Just saying, giving some personal detail. Yes. And put in as much or as little as you like, and on the back, it is your authority to us to use or not to use the tape for any purposes.
HB: Oh,I see, yes, yes.
PR: Yes. It does say things like broadcasting not like that with this particular topic, but it could be in the future that they want to put a little, writing about Balls Park.
HB: This is how history's made isn't it, you capitalise on people before they forget.
TG: If the museum wants to do such a feature on local educators, establishments or something called a listening post where you can go and listen to people talking. Oh, yes. Particular areas. So..
HB: I often think that we lost a tremendous opportunity by not getting Monica Wingate to sit down and record memories.
TG: Oh, gosh, yes.
HB: Because they went back so far and she was so well connected.
TG: She would have had, with her background.
HB: With her background, both with her background but also intellectually, it was we didn't take the bed, didn't she?
TG: Would she have done it.
HB: I think she probably would. She was a good sport was Monica. She, she was.
PR: I put my address at the top, right?
HB: Yes, she was. She never stood on her ‘I'm the principal’ line at all. She was there to facilitate. Oh, was a very happy place to work, Balls Park. Thank you!
TG: I think that's a good point to switch off. Brilliant.
HB: Great.
TG: That's really good. Harold. Thank you so much.
END OF RECORDING