Transcript Detail
| Transcript Title | Brett, Dorothy (O1996.25) |
| Interviewee | Dorothy Brett (DB) |
| Interviewer | Eve Sangster |
| Date | 01/01/1996 |
| Transcriber by | Eve Sangster, 14.5.93 with additions by Marilyn Taylor |
Transcript
Hertford Oral History Group
Recording no: O 1996.25
Interviewee: Dorothy Brett (DB)
Date: 1996
Venue: 94 North Road, Hertford
Interviewer: Eve Sangster (ES)
Transcribed by: Eve Sangster, with additions by Marilyn Taylor
************** = unclear recording
Italics = transcribers notes
[discussion] = untranscribed material
Note on original transcript from Eve Sangster : When seeking photographs of Connell's, the pawnbrokers. I first spoke to her she had quite a bit to say which was of interest but this proved almost impossible to elicit when I returned with the tape recorder.
ES: I will just say where I am this is Eve Sangster at Miss Brett’s house 94 North Road, Hertford.
I don’t….what is your Christian name?
DB: Dorothy.
ES: Dorothy Brett, she was born in 1909.
DB: Yes 1st December 1909.
ES: At Connell's, the jewellers in Maidenhead Street where her father managed the shop, they lived over the shop, it was a huge place with 10 rooms and a lovely old kitchen. You had one sister?
DB: One sister yes, Tiny (Edna)
ES: Who died, you said, there years ago?
DB: Yes she was 77.
ES: You said you didn’t ever help in the pawnbrokers? You never helped in the shop?
DB: We were never left in the shop, no.
ES: You wouldn’t have helped on a Saturday or anything like that?
DB: No they had boys to do that. We had one boy live in I think for years. But remember I was very young then. On a Saturday they had boys in I think. You see the top of the house was a warehouse, you see there was about 4 rooms at the top of the house *************
ES: In this picture, this photo, are these things hanging up? Or were they the tickets on things?
DB: Yes well now with the pawnbroking after so many months, I think, they could be sold, they were almost new stuff and things they would come and they didn’t collect them and they were sold. I don’t know much about it.
ES: Can you just describe what the actual buildings were like, you said Stallabrass was one side?
DB: Yes.
ES: And the Blue Boot Company the other in between you and the Blue Boot Company was the yard. Can you just describe that.
DB: In what way?
ES: Well you said there was a big yard and huge gates?
DB: Yes you couldn’t get over it.
ES: And when you say the butcher slaughter cattle there, was that Stallabrasses?
DB: Stallabrass yes.
ES: They had four cattle pens?
DB: Yes in the yard and there was big stables at the back there as well.
ES: Who did they belong to?
DB: Stallabrass, very big stable about 3 places for horses
ES: You went?
DB: Yes, that’s right and my sister
ES: Can you just say again about how you were not allowed to go along Railway Street?
DB: Because they were poor people and Dad didn't want me to see them ... At the convent school, If you were seen talking to anybody you'd be flung out. Weren't even allowed to talk to the grammar school girls, let alone anybody else. Very snooty. Of course, the war stopped all
that.
ES: Were the conditions in the yards off Railway Street so very bad, then?
DB: What.. the houses both sides were the same. Little old cottages.
ES: Were sometimes the windows broken and so on?
DB: Yes windows were always broken more or less. You'd see a sack up at the window. You never saw any furniture in there. I used to look in there. It was only curiosity.
ES: Yes that’s right just like a kid……
DB: I used to think how awful it was. But bless their hearts, they were straight as dies. I mean, they had to come and pawn their clothes to get some money for food.
ES: But you were saying about these poor little children left outside in prams.
DB: Covered in sores. Put me right off babies my friend came from Hoddesdon takes me out You know my friend came in takes me every almost every Saturday, Jane, came and bought her baby in she has got a new baby. She gave it to Angela to nurse you know, you know I can’t take to babies, fond of older children, but I think it was that, now animals yes, I think it was that poor little dears, I shouldn’t think they had the prams, they used to stick them in there dirty, egg all over their face……….it was looking at these photographs bought it all back to me which I didn’t want to know about but I will soon forget it.
ES: I am sorry about that, you were saying about in some cottages, breaking up the staircase for fire-wood.
DB: Yes, I've seen one of those where the staircase was, all the banisters broken off to put on the fire.
ES: You were saying about the Maidenhead Inn , that was where Woolworths are?
DB: Maidenhead Inn yes.
ES: What was the Maidenhead Yard like? Was it a yard attached to the pub?
DB: Yes straight opposite us and there was a stables at the back there, big yard at the back there.
ES: Were they picturesque some of these yards or not at all?
DB: Yes I think so oh yes…..I mean down Maidenhead Yard where the Harts and that lived. There was never any old muck outside the places, they were always clean.
ES: So where there any tenements or cottages in Maidenhead Yard too?
DB: Yes right at the back they are still there I think aren’t they?
ES: Quite likely, which family of Harts was it?
DB: I don’t know.
ES: Oh I just wondered.
DB: I think there was three daughters, three girls, two of the worked for ************* during the war.
ES: Where is Dolphin Yard or where was Dolphin Yard?
DN: Dolphin Yard, well err do you remember the butchers shop, what was it, Dewhursts, next door to there, its still there isn’t it?
Transcribers Note now the site of the new library, Dewhursts became Ashleys china and glass currently under development.
ES: Yes that’s right.
DB: That was Dolphin Yard, I never went down there. There was an old man, name of Day. He was a sweep.
ES: Not Dye?
DB: No, old Dye lived up Railway Street. This was Day a little old boy. I remember him.
I remember seeing him standing up the top of the yard.
Transcribers Note: Possibly William Day, 5 Maidenhead Yard
ES: Several of our interviewees have described an old woman called Grannie Raw. You don't
remember her? Used to go along to the pawnbrokers every Monday with bundles under her black
cloak.
DB: Burgess, her name was. She lived on, you know as you go over the bridge at Bull Plain to The Folly.
ES: Yes.
DB: Her little cottage was there, right next to the bridge.
ES: Ah so on the left opposite Lombard House.
DB: On the left yes, Mrs Burgess, dear old thing, she was; lovely old girl. But you see if they sent the kids down, she used to have to come and section that they….as far as I remember. She used to take responsibility. Mrs Burgess, who told you about that?
ES: Well several people have said about this “Granny Raw” - perhaps there was more than one….
DB: We called her Mrs Burgess, but I think she was the only one.
ES: But in one of the photos we have got of ……its actually where Pearces bakery, where Wrens used to be.
DB: Yes.
ES: and then I suppose it’s Green Street - a narrow street wasn’t it?
DB: Yes.
ES: and the house and …..
DB: That’s Wrens.
ES: And then there was an establishment on this corner I think I can just about make out the name of Raw written on this, on the side of this building. It might be an old clothes shop or something like that.
Transcribers Note : Possible fish
DB: Oh I don’t know
ES: Of course, people are talking, people reminisce but you don’t necessarily know which decade they are talking about do you
DB: No you don’t.
ES: You don’t remember Miss Hoad do you? Miss Hoad, a woman who worked in a sweet shop in St Andrew Street, didn’t wear shoes, I don’t know if she was…had an ethical position against leather or something.
DB: Did she used to have sacks round her feet?
ES: Yes.
DB: I do remember her but I don’t know where she came from I used to get sweets in the town. Yes funny old girl.
ES: Yes that’s right I think she worked at Palmers, do you remember Palmers sweet shop?
DB: Where was that?
ES: It was coming up St Andrew Street on the left about number 27.
DB: St Andrew Street - I remember Barbers of course.
ES: Apparently she worked there and she used to put notices in the window.
DB: Oh I do remember that somebody did say……funny notices she used to put in the window.
ES: I mean we have just interviewed a chap that worked at County Hall and she put a note ……
DB: What was the note she put in there?
ES: He fell out with Miss Hoad over some business at Waterford Church because I think she used to work for the Abel Smith family. The man we interviewed he was a churchwarden but the vicar at Waterford church fell out with the Abel Smith’s and Miss Hoad took the Abel Smith line and the next thing he knew there was a card in the window of Palmers accusing him of adultery with a married woman at Waterford. Anyway did you ever go to the Premiere theatre or the cinema round in…….The Premiere, or The Regent In Market Street.
DB: Yes, what, Market Street? Used to be a cinema there didn’t there?
ES: Yes.
DB: Backs on to that pub doesn’t it?
ES: The White Hart.
DB: I know there was a cinema there, but there used to be a little cinema where Hinds is now.
ES: Yes that’s right.
DB: I remember that, don’t remember much else, it was only small. That’s a long time ago.
ES: Who owned the jewellers then? If your father was only the manager.
DB: Well Connells but they didn’t own it, it belonged to the Mercury Office people.
Transcribers Note: Possibly Stephen Austin they started in business in Maidehead Street in 1768
ES: I see the Mercury.. right well I don’t know if there is anything else, I want to ask you. You don’t remember Maudie Mead Do you?
DB: Oh, another old lady! and she used to have a big old truck. She used to swear like anything I remember her going up and down on a Saturday night. She used to go and collect all the rubbish from the stalls up there. They used to have a market down Bull Plain and Market Street.
She had a daughter. I remember seeing this daughter. She used to talk to herself; shout aloud. Her maiden name was Mead was it?
ES: I think so Maudie Mead, was she something to do with the Gaol? Did she live up there?
DB: I think she did live up there, yes, I think she did.
ES: When people say about the Gaol, do they mean the one that was in Baker Street? Off the Ware Road
DB: Yes I never went down there very poor place that was. There was the Plough the pub wasn’t it? Baker Street, yes, my friend works down there now she is the secretary for the W.V.S they have got a place down there.
ES: Yes that’s right. Oh well its all sort of very hygienic and open now isn’t it. Right well I don’t know if there is anything else. Have you anything that you particularly remember that you would like to add?
DB: Only about.. (Whispers poss Catholic Choir)
ES: Well that’s interesting.
DB: I was in the Catholic……. I am not a Catholic, but I was in the Catholic choir for 20 years. Then my sister and I were in the Dramatic & Operatic Society for about 25 years. Neither of us ever left home because our Mum was an asthmatic 'bless her heart' I more or less nursed her from the age of 12 until I was 40. She could never do any work because of her asthma, she had two women ….
ES: It used to cripple people didn’t it.
DB: Oh yes, dreadful. They even, doctor even let me give her an adrenalin injection you see so then but she only lived 18 months after dad died, she seemed to give up. Sad, she was lovely. Tiny and I we wouldn’t leave her you see. When we had the opportunities to get married we wouldn’t leave her. That was why I took a job in Woolworths's, so I was opposite, and I could look after her. Shame, beautiful she was.
Transcribers Note: Dorothy’s mother Mabel died in 1951 aged 64
DB: Oh I was going to show you something that we found in the Blue Boot Stores.
ES: You don’t want a hand?
DB: Used to be Mr Joyce who was the manager of the Blue Boots Stores. Well he had known me since I was born and I used to go in there and he made me my first dolls house, he adored all the the children.
One day I don’t know I suppose I was about 17 or 18, I was always in there, so fond of me he said to me oh I found this in the cellar would you like it, it was a militia man’s helmet, a beautiful thing it was. So he said ‘would you like it?’. I said oh yes I would love that. So he said well I’ll…………..and this was inside it, so when I came up here my cousin………I said I have got so much stuff here, how am I going to get rid of this, she said I will find a collector and sell them for you. She sold it for me, I don’t know how much it was now it’s 40 years ago, about 10 or 20 pounds I expect. But these were the things that were found inside the helmet. Obviously these belonged to his girlfriend I thought you might be interested to show them..
Not from Eve Sangster’s original transcript: Dorothy displays some treasures found in a militia man's helmet in the cellars of The Blue Boot Stores by Mr Joyce, the manager, and given to her. She also shows a pocket diary of 1880 and (I think) a programme for a concert at the Corn Exchange, presented by Mr & Mrs Brice at the turn of the century.
ES: At the museum….oh yes.
DB: Beautiful isn’t it, and it’s in splendid condition,
ES: 1855.
DB: Obviously it was his girlfriend I would say.
ES: Yes.
DB: That’s a hankie, lovely isn’t it, yes.
ES: Sort of sad at the same time a little bit.
DB: Of course I wouldn’t let that go, I wish I hadn’t let the helmet go now.
ES: I know this is what galls you its not what……you know it’s the things you did let go.
DB: This was a little fan beautiful isn’t it, still got the little wooden thing
ES: Yes that’s right, lovely, lovely
DB: I thought perhaps you might show that in your exhibition.
ES: Yes……I mean this, especially, I mean this is amazing. They had a lot of silk items in those days. What were those………you know you find in old books, silk bookmarkers don’t you. You did get silk Christmas Cards and Birthday cards didn’t you. I mean obviously I suppose it was silk on card, I can’t quite remember. Well would you like me to….
DB: Well you can borrow that.
ES: I mean I think this is the thing they will be interested in at the Museum I won’t take…
DB: Take them all, I don’t mind, yes.
ES: It’s such a responsibility.
DB: It’ll be alright.
ES: So this was found in a militia helmet?
DB: Yes underneath the Blue Boot Stores.
ES: When you say underneath the Blue Boots Stores do you mean in the cellar?
DB: In the cellars yes, they were big cellars.
ES: Yes lovely, and I am sure they will actually want to try and copy that.
DB: This is what we found I think …..where my Dad and Mum sometimes…I think there was a new board put in underneath the front shop and this was found underneath the boards, must have gone through the boards or something, its very old.
ES: Well it is actually bought in Hertford, Letts pocket diary 1880.
DB: I don’t know whether you are interested in this?
ES: Interesting isn’t it, can I borrow this as well?
DB: Yes of course, and this, its in Mummy’s writing she was one of…..there was 9 in the family, Uncle Alf and her were the two youngest, very fond of each other. This is obviously a half penny stamp book – she obviously wrote to Uncle Alf about something.
Transcribers Note: He mother’s maiden name was Childs and the family lived in Warren Terrace, Bengeo. They were related to the Childs family of Hertford Heath that is also part of Peter Ruffles family and the Childs family that own F Bentley and co in Hertford.
ES: ************ My mother kept everything, she wrote a diary from when she was 14 till when she died, you know we have got stacks of things. Every letter and so on. I am amazed when I look back old postcards you know that used to say see you this afternoon meet you at half past one of something and to think that was actually going to get there. Yes its interesting, these are jolly nice………….I am so pleased with these I can’t tell you.
DB: Oh good
ES: “The cheapest in Hertfordshire” right
DB: laughs
ES: Right well I will look after these very carefully, whoops.
DB: Says she, knocking it to the floor!
ES: What was your sister’s real name - you said Tiny before
DB: Edna Tiny
Transcribers note: She was baptised and registered as Edna Tiny Brett so it was her middle name not a nickname
ES: Edna.
DB: Yes but everybody knew her as Tiny.
ES: Yes well I would just call that Edna Brett.
DB: Yes that’s right.
ES: It is a very good photo isn’t it ?
DB: It is isn’t it, good of Tiny.
ES: Yes.
DB: It shows somebody, but this girl at the back, you know, I told you, she said its just like Tiny.
ES: So when do you think that was taken?
DB: That must have been…
ES: Can you tell how old she is?
DB: About 40
ES: Yes so about the end of the war?
DB: About 3 years after Dad died, well he died on 1st………well I was 40
Transcribers Note: He died on her 40th Birthday 1st December 1949
ES: Yes.
DB: He died on my birthday
ES: So say this is like 1945, when do you think that is?
DB: I don’t know.
ES: I know you don’t remember but how old do you think your father looks there? He is a nice looking man isn’t he! Can I just write in pencil on the back of this Edna Brett, cause I mean…
DB: That’s right, Dad’s name was George Charles Brett.
ES: Edna Brett outside the shop about 1945.
DB: I remember sitting up there, there was a lounge upstairs, when the circus came they used to bring all the elephants and that round the streets. You don’t see that now do you?
ES: So when…..now let’s try and fix this, you look…actually he was a nice looking man.
DB: (whispers long gap) this is the book *******used to play bowls a lot, that’s a nice one,
ES: Oh yes, he has got film star looks hasn’t he?
DB: He came from Kingston on Thames to Hertford, his father was a Chemist and he used to …….. he patented an awful lot of things, are you interested in this sort of thing?
ES: Well perhaps that…..
Transcribers Note: Dorothy seems to be sorting through papers and photographs. Her father was actually born in Trowbridge Wiltshire but the family moved to Kingston when he was very young. His father is listed in 1901 as “Chemist and Dog wash manufacturer” and in 1911 as” a manufacturer of toilet preparations”
DB: My sister and I.
ES: Oh yes, couple of glamour girls there, nice pair of legs.
DB: This is my grandfather, this was his smoking cap, cause this was his shop, he patented ringworm, all these things
ES: Oh I see and this was at Kingston.
DB: He used to….that was his shop and he patented things for ringworm and all that.
ES: Oh I see right yes ringworm……
DB: This was in the paper not very much longer, same sort of shop as the Marks and Spencers at about the same time I think.
ES: Yes.
DB: What a difference.
ES: Yes in fortune between the….
DB: Because my grandfather was a big Masons man, he was very high up in masonry I kept these.
ES: It is strange isn’t it but of course there is such a lot of luck in it. The older you get the more you realise it’s luck isn’t it really.
DB: Oh yes.
ES: Yes this is a lovely photo, yes it’s nice.
DB: There she is …
ES: There’s your grandfather smoking a pipe….so..
DB: Daddy used to collect all the time, he was an auctioneer really by trade.
ES: Oh and did he do auctioneering in Hertford?
DB: No, when he left school he trained as an auctioneer but he came to Hertford as a young man and stayed here.
ES: So what are we gong to say this looks like your father he looks as though he’s about 30 there do you think?
DB: I should think he was yes, he wasn’t very old was he?
ES: No, have you any idea when he was born? I could have another look at this ….
DB: No I don’t, I suppose I have got it somewhere his death certificate
ES: Funnily enough it almost looks as though its 1915.
DB: Can you see with that, its not very good?
ES: No its not but it makes it easier. How old do you think your father would have been in 1915? Do you know how old he was when you were born?
DB: When he was born?
ES: When you were born how old was he?
DB: Oh I suppose he wouldn’t have been much more than 20 odd would he?
ES: When you were born?
DB: Yes.
ES: So say he was 20 in 1909 Ok well that could be it it could be about 1915, couldn’t it cause that makes him in his late 20’s.
Transcribers Note: Dorothy’s father was actually born in 1883 so he was 26 when Dorothy was born and 32 in 1915
DB: Yes he went in the 1914 war.
ES: Yes
DB: Not until….
ES: Not right at the beginning?
DB: No.
ES: Alright, well shall we say, I don’t think I can read any more with that, say for arguments sake its probably about 1915.
DB: I would say so, something like that.
ES: It’s lovely, I am so pleased with you.
DB: Are you?
ES: No I am. You are a good discovery anyway I shall be back of course to let you know what the museum thinks of those and if you think of anything else you can always ring me can’t you.
DB: Yes.
ES: If you think of any bits to tell me.
DB: You’ll bring them back when you have finished with them?
ES: Oh yes yes but I mean if you think of anything you might suddenly remember, about the pawnbrokers, or something like that or something about you know one of the….
DB: No I don’t know, all these wonderful books, he was a wonderful writer, all his ledgers …
ES: Yes.
DB: I shall have to get them out, beautifully done, wonderful man with his books.
ES: Yes somebody gave me, well loaned me for this exhibition, some ledgers from , you know Johnson’s the butchers.
DB: Yes.
ES: You know Bruce Johnson?
DB: Is he still alive?
ES: Yes he’s not that old, he’s only in his 70’s, Bruce.
DB: Oh Bruce, one of them died, cause Tiny used to be friends with one of them, which one was that then, he was younger than Bruce.
ES: Yes did he commit suicide?
DB: I believe he did, either that or he died, but I believe he did.
ES: Obviously when he was very young, they were nice looking boys those.
DB: Yes they were.
ES: He has lent us quite a lot of things for this including some enormous ledgers, quite that thick, like this, but they are quite interesting because….
DB: A lot of peoples’ names in there.
ES: Well that’s right a lot of the local families, (Salmonds) and so on and Christs Hospital and so on. So that is all quite interesting.
Transcribers Note: Unclear but could be the Salmonds family related to Lady Desboorough at Panshanger.
DB: He knew everyone in Hertford.
ES: Well of course everybody knows me! It was such a relatively small place I think at the turn of the century there were only 7.000 people here. Which is….
DB: He used to collect all antiques my father…
ES: Yes.
DB: Nearly 200 years old that is that belonged to my great great great Aunt.
ES: What, the Chinese pot pourri…?
DB: Its been in the family nearly 200 years I think.
ES: I mean I suppose this is interesting to isn’t it, this shell?
DB: Yes. Oh well when Tiny was at Welwyn Stores she had a big exhibition of ****** and big shells and she did so very well selling they , when them came to take the display away they gave her that shell as a reward.
ES: Right well I will get out of your hair, let me switch this off.
Tape ends