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Transcript Title	Warner, Molly (O1992.1)
Interviewee	Molly Warner (MW)
Interviewer	Simon Townsend (ST)
Date	19/02/1992
Transcriber by	Eve Sangster

Transcript

Hertford Oral History Group

Recording no: O 1992.1

Interviewee: Molly Warner (MW)

Date: 19th February 1992

Interviewer: Simon Townsend (ST)

Transcribed by: Eve Sangster

Typed by Eve Sangster?

************** = unclear recording

[discussion] = untranscribed material

ST: This is Simon Townsend recording Mollie Warner for the Hertford Oral History Group on Wednesday 19th Feb 1992

Long Pause before recording begins

ST: Can I begin by asking you when you began working for the Desborough family?

MW: I had to go into the laundry to be able to wait for a position in the still-room, you see.

ST: So your first job was at Panshanger and not Taplow Court?

MW: Well, no, well, it was Taplow Court, of course, yes, that's when we first started because we only came to Panshanger twice a year. Oh yes, Taplow Court. I was a Girl Guide at Taplow and her Ladyship was President of the Guides and that's how we were able to get our jobs; if she liked you, took to you, then she'd say there was a position going. And she said to me that there would be a position going in the still-room eventually, so to get it I went into the laundry. It was only a matter of about six weeks. And that's how I first started at Taplow Court.

ST: And you were fifteen?

MW: Fifteen.

ST: And what year was that?

MW: I was born in 1910. So what year would that be? It was in the Twenties, anyway, because I remember -

ST: 1925 it would have been.

MW: Yes, because I remember coming to Panshanger for the first time and the strike was on, the General Strike; that's why I remember it very plainly.

ST: Right. So your first job was in the laundry at Taplow Court.

MW: Yes, for about six weeks. To be able to get into the still-room. The still-room, of course, was a very, very lovely job. You only did the fancy fruits and iced tea and iced coffee and cakes and scones, you know, and rolls or anything like that.

ST: Do you remember how much you were paid when you started in the laundry?

MW: I don't think I was paid much, all the time I was there. I was there about seven years and the rise didn't go up, I don't think, only about once. I had £24 a year. That's what we were paid and then when Lord and Lady Desborough went away we were on what they called 'board wages', which we were allowed 14/- a week. We had to buy all our own food with that, you see. And laundry we were allowed 2/6d. a week and we used to have to have a clean cap and apron every other day. So the money didn't go very far. But, of course, it was vastly different to what it is today.

But I was very, very happy there. Very happy. I mean, it wasn't hard work, Simon, not when they were just on their own. We were off-duty every other day, afternoon and evening. You were expected to go to church, obviously. Well, more so at Panshanger than we were at Taplow Court and, of course, you know, when they had entertaining and parties then, of course, we did have to work very hard. Because what they called their parties would start on a Friday afternoon, ready for Friday evening dinner, you see, and would go on right until after breakfast on Monday. So, of course, we were very, very busy, working very hard. I mean, because being in the still-room it wasn't so hard - our biggest meal for the still-room workers - well, there was only I and the head still-room maid - that we used to have to supply all the tea, you see. Used to expect, say, fourteen to fifteen different cakes to make. So we used to have to make all those. But that was our hardest meal. Used to have to supply the toast, and all that. For breakfast. And in the evening our worst time was when we used to have to wait for the coffee cups and the dessert plates and if you'd been up since about half-past-five in the morning and this was getting about 11 o'clock you were very, very tired indeed waiting for them to come out. Cos they were talking; they didn't think of the poor little girls through the back waiting to go to bed. But, yes, it was very nice but Panshanger, of course, was a gorgeous place; liked it very much ….

ST: How did the family decide when to 'live in Panshanger and when to live in Taplow Court?

MW: Well, they had times, you see. They came down twice a year. Normally, it would be at Easter time, nearly always Easter time, and then towards Christmas. We never had a Christmas here; only one year, I think, when we were snowed up. It was dreadful. It was level with - Now, you know Fordwich Hill, don't you? - well, it was level. So you can tell how bad it was. We were completely cut off. But normally we were at Taplow Court for Christmas but she was always here for what she called her 'St. Thomas's Day'. Now all these people - estate workers, I suppose, they used to have to come to the Servants' Hall and they were allowed as much bread and cheese and hot, well, warm, beer as they wanted and then they were given so much money. She always had to be down here for that. It was normally in the November time.

ST: That was in November.

MW: Yes.

ST: And they were also in Panshanger at Easter. So they stayed at Panshanger for a month or two at Easter?

MW: Well, usually about six weeks. A month to six weeks.

ST: And they came back again in the autumn.

MW: That's right.

ST: So they were in Taplow Court during the Christmas, winter period and during the summer.

MW: Yes, yes. Of course, you see, because Lord Desborough was Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard and every Ascot Sunday he used to have to go right down the river to see, in this big barge, to see that it was all clear. We spent most of the time up there, in the summer time. Taplow Court was a lovely place. It had better grounds than Panshanger. 'Cos we were right up high and you could look right down at traffic going to Maidenhead. And he'd got his own private river, you see, what we called the boat house. He'd got a boathouse there and it had got a gun that went off when he rowed for Oxford, during the Eighties. And, of course, it was a very pretty place but it hadn't got the lovely rooms that Panshanger had got. They had some very, very wonderful picture gallery there.

ST: A little later I'll ask you to explain how the house looked because I think that's very interesting to know how it visually appeared, but I'm just sort of curious to find out, when the family moved from one house to the other, who stayed and who moved?

MW: There was always a skeleton staff stayed at Taplow Court, obviously. They had the odd-job man there and I think they had perhaps one house maid there but the rest of us all had to come to Panshanger and there was about seventeen of us in staff and the butler came as well. No, beg your pardon, the butler did not come. We were under the house-keeper here. The butler stayed behind. Mr. Barratt Good, his name was. He stayed behind but when we first came here it used to be a Miss Willard and then in time I think she left - she was very, very old - and a Mrs. Bruce came. They were always given the title of 'Mrs' although they weren't married. But they had to be called 'Mrs’ and she came from 145 Piccadilly, the Duke and Duchess of York. She'd been with them, you see, and she actually came to Panshanger to get a side line on what housekeeping was like and then she went to Windsor Castle, to the Queen Mother, who was then Queen. So she was at Windsor Castle. And in time one of our housemaids, she went there also, as head linen maid, from Panshanger. So we used to visit Windsor Castle, with my children I used to go; she used to give me a lovely time, my husband and I. In fact, my husband went to one of the balls there, you know, when they give the balls, the Royals, and they stayed the night at the Castle.

ST: That's remarkable.

MW: Yes, he enjoyed it but they didn't ever invite the ladies. It was always the men; I think there was enough ladies on the staff. So, but it was wonderful, really. He thoroughly enjoyed it and so did we when we used to go there. 'Cos she had her own sort of, you know, beautiful rooms and she only had to ring the bell and the chef would send up all this lovely tea; you know, really gorgeous tea: fresh salmon; beautiful strawberries. I remember one year she sent through the railway, she sent me a great, huge box of lovely strawberries, Mrs. Bruce did. She was extremely kind to me. And I got, my children were young then, so …. But I can't say out of the two houses which I liked best. Panshanger, yes, for the room and the house, because it was gorgeous. But Taplow Court had the lovely grounds.

ST: I'm keen also to find out how the family moved. When the family travelled. O.K., it's Easter time and the family's coming up to Panshanger. Would they have used the train or would they have used their own private transport?

MW: No, the big Rolls Royce was used. But, some of us in the staff, myself,of course, being one, were very sea sick travelling because a Rolls sort of glides, doesn't it?

ST: I wouldn't know.

MW: And we were very, very bad travellers so we had to come on the train. And then, of course, the butler used to come down with us and then he'd go back, perhaps, you know, several days afterwards. Yes, several of us had to come on the train but the rest of them came in the car.

ST: It must have been a huge amount of boxes and packing cases.

MW: Oh yes, there was, yes. And, not only that, once we'd got settled in, you see, the vegetables and all the fruit had to come from Taplow Court because Panshanger had no kitchen gardens at all. Whereas at Taplow Court they'd grow everything: grapes, peaches, nectarines, everything. So, therefore, these great hampers used to come to Cole Green - it was the railway then, in those days; there was a station there - and all the vegetables used to come in these big hampers. Oh yes, it was very exciting.

ST: And so did the other staff travel in the same car as the Desboroughs or was there a motorcade of cars?

MW: Oh no, no. They came in a different …. His Lordship and Ladyship had what they called 'their car.

ST: They had several Rolls’, did they?

MW: Well, I think they're called the Bentleys, now. But, it was always a green car. 'His Lordship had his own car and then his Lordship and her Ladyship shared a car. But I always remember His Lordships car was well, like these old-fashioned cars, you know; green with these big brass lamps and that. I can remember them so plain. And then the other one was similar to that but a closed-in one and then, of course, they'd got the Rolls that we used to travel in, so ….. Well, they, of course, travelled in it but it used to glide so much that half of us staff were always sick, so they wouldn't let us; they made us come on the train.

ST: So you found the train more comfortable than the car?

MW: Oh, yes. Oh much, much. I'm no lover of cars, even now, Simon. No, I'd get no pleasure out of driving a car. I've never learnt to drive and I never would want to. No. Oh no. I enjoyed the train journey much better.

ST: When you arrived at the station - Which station did you come in to?

MW: Cole Green. And; then, of course, we were met there, you see, by the car because they were ahead of us, obviously. Oh yes, oh we were met at the station. Yes, it was only a tiny little station but His Lordship used it, of course, when he used to go to town. He always had to go from the Cole Green.

ST: Can you describe what it was like when you were first driving up to the house? You, get in the car and then you obviously drove up from Cole Green to Panshanger.

MW: Well, you obviously thought it was something out of this world, although, of course, we'd been used to Taplow Court by then but to us Panshanger seemed to be huge; which, of course, it was, to what Taplow Court was. Oh, it was a wonderful feeling. It was a rather frightening feeling to begin with because our rooms, as I've showed you were right………. and it was called Piccadilly Landing, that's what it was called. And there was three windows in our bedroom, so you can tell the size of it, and the first two or three nights I was alone because the kitchen maid hadn't come down - they had to fetch her after that - and I really must say that I felt quite frightened then, 'cos, Taplow Court seemed to be more friendly, more smaller and friendlier, you know, for my bedroom at Taplow Court looked out to this great big mound - the private burial ground, actually, of the Desboroughs, the days-gone-by burials - and it was quite a pleasant view and you could look right across, you know, to see traffic, and that, moving. But at Panshanger, of course, there was nothing.

And then, of course, I remember we used to have - oh, Mr Scott, I think his name was. He was a policeman. He lived in one of the cottages outside Panshanger, belonging to Panshanger, and he used to have to tour round the house each night, and I always remember, I think we'd had a party that night, and we used to have to do the butter all different, fancy, you know - leaves, daffodils, all that sort of thing - and I remember taking the butter along to the pantry and it had got a very big open window and there were stone floors, sort of thing, and I'd just got inside the pantry and this face looked through the window. I dropped the lot and screamed. You know, they were very angry with me but, I mean, it was a stupid thing for the man to have done, you know. He just looked through at me and, of course, I was terrified. Really couldn't stop from running when I put that butter down , so …..

ST: So, when you first went up to Panshanger you were still working in the laundry.

MW: No! No!

ST: You were then a still-room maid.

MW: Well, I used to help in the laundry because the other still-room maid hadn't quite gone. She hadn't finished her time. So I was in the laundry a little while at Panshanger. I imagine about three weeks, as far as I can remember. That again was very, very interesting. I don’t know, I think I told you before that Her Ladyship used to have all the pillows goffered. Used to have to be goffered, you know, like you use goffering tongs. Well, perhaps you don't but like they have tongs in hairdressers only these were long and thin; very thin and very narrow. But everything was goffered and her nightdresses used to be goffered. And it was a great big laundry, you know, a huge laundry, it really was, and the rollers, you know, you used to have to put them through the rollers. But, there again, it was quite easy work and once their work was done they were free.

ST: How did you goffer? A goffer is like a tong, as you say, but you.....

MW: You just put it in and sort of turn, see. I used to have to do it with my eldest son. The brigadier, when he was in the choir. He had the ruffles. I had 'to goffer those for him. Very, very easy to do.

ST: And how did you heat the tongs up? 'Cos they wouldn't be electric, would they?

MW: Oh no, there was nothing there. We had what they called a sort of a heating-thing, you know, that you put it on, like the irons, you see...

ST: Next to the fire?

MW: Yes, yes, a special stand.

ST: A special stand for them, next to the fire?

MW: Oh yes. There was no electricity or gas in Panshanger. There was electricity for the lights but not to cook with. Everything was done by the stoves. And I think, if I remember rightly, there was one, two, three, four, five stoves in the kitchen. So you can tell how big it was. 'Cos we had a very big stove in the still-room. But everything had to be cooked on the stove.

ST: Can we start talking about - If we can just - I want just to build picture of the different people working there. I think you said there were about seventeen people working in the staff.

MW: Seventeen, yes.

ST: Then, of course, there were all the gamekeepers. They would have been based at the house all the time?

MW: Yes, that's right. They used to do the ground. There used to be the head gamekeeper and then the other gamekeepers. And then there was two chauffeurs, you see and then there was the Oddman, you see, so there was quite a big staff.

ST: Do you remember amongst the seventeen of you who travelled up to the house? Do you remember their names and what they did?

MW: Oh, I don't think I could, Simon. I couldn't remember some of their .names; honestly, I couldn't; not now. I remember the Oddman, William. His name was Taylor. His wife, or widow, rather, lived in Bull Plain, in one of those cottages now that are turned into offices. Now his son was Pike & Taylor, do you remember, of Port Vale? Pike & Taylor, the T.V. people. Yes, that was one family. I can't remember half the staff now. Well, I remember their names. There was Katie and Patsie, Pansie; oh, and Constance, you know. Oh, and then there was the Nanny, you see, because they used to come and stay with the children, Lady Salmond’s children. They used to come and stay there. So we also had the nursery trays to do, as well. Because there was two. There was head Nanny and then there was a nursery girl.

ST: So there would be the staff who worked in the kitchen ….

MW: Yes.

ST: …. There'd be the staff who were waiting at table ….

MW: Well, that consisted of the butler, Mr. Barratt Good, and two parlour-maids. I always remember - their name was - Minnie was one and Katie was the other. The surnames I can't remember. But Barratt Good I remember very plainly. He went there as boot boy when he was fifteen.

(Doorbell rings but Mollie tells Simon to ignore it)

ST: So we've got the staff working then at table; the staff in the kitchen. Who else would there have been?

MW: Well, there was five housemaids. You start with the head housemaid and then there'd be one, two, three, four, five; they'd go down, you see. Head housemaid, then there'd be the first housemaid, then the second one. So that was the housemaids. Then there was two in the still-room, you see, and the kitchen would have two. A woman used to sort of come in sometimes to do the washing-up.

ST: Do you remember what they actually did, what their job was to do?

MW: Oh, yes. The parlour-maids, of course, they used to have to do all the silver and everything, you see, as well as …. the butler, Mr. Barratt Good used to take the food through but the parlour-maids used to have to help as well.

(Telephone rings)

ST: Could we now talk about the Desborough family? How many members of the family were there?

MW: Well, of course, as I think I've told you before, I got there just after the last son had been killed, Mr Ivor. He was killed in a car accident. The other two sons were killed during the war. So there was three sons and two daughters. One was Miss Imogen and the other was Miss Monica. Well, Monica married Air Marshall Salmond and eventually, not while I was there, Miss Imogen married Lord Gage, so that was the family.

ST: So the two daughters were there when you were working there?

MW: That's right. Yes, well, Monica was married, she was. She wasn't there. But the child, the daughter, rather, I don't know how old she would be; Miss Joy, I think her name (was); she went to a very exclusive school at Ascot. Lady Desborough used to have her over then to stay, you know. But, the other two children, of course, they belonged to Monica as well and they used to come there and stay. Julian and Rosemary their names were and then Lady Gage got married, of course, after I left.

ST: What were the children like?

MW: Well, His Lordship used to be very strict with Julian because he was· …. he was a wonderful man, Lord Desborough. Lord and Lady Desborough they were, really. If I ever came through this life again, I'd still want to do the same. And Julian one day didn't speak to the parlour maid; didn't say 'good morning' to Minnie, I think it was, and he.... he'd got a very gruff voice …. and he said, "What did you forget, Julian?” "Nothing." He said, "Didn't you?" He said, "You didn't say good morning to Minnie." He just shrugged his shoulders. And he punished him. He took him back up to the nursery and said he was to be punished. Oh, he was very, very strict, like that sort of thing. Yes, but they were very nice children other than that. They came to stay there quite a lot which, of course, made extra work for the still-room because we were responsible for their trays as well, so, but, there you are, we didn't mind working hard because we had it easy when they weren't entertaining.

ST: I suppose the children, if they'd wanted to, could have really played you up, couldn't they?

MW: Oh,yes, of course, they could, but we were very naughty. We were always playing up the valets' beds when they came. We were really terrible. But we had, no - really, Simon, there was no life for us at all; not social life. We had to make our own amusements, you see. So that was the way we got it, by playing up the valets beds and things.

ST: We'll talk about that later. O.K! Getting back to your job, when you first started working there you were still in the laundry for five weeks.

MW: That's right. I went straight to the laundry when I first got there.

ST: And then this vacancy turned up in the still-room.

MW: That's right.

ST: And so your job title was?

MW: Under still-room maid.

ST: Under still-room maid.

MW: Although, I might add, the head still-room maid couldn't make a cake for toffee nuts. She really couldn't. I used to be making the cakes. I don't know if I've told you the history of that in my last lot? The head still-room maid was away on holiday - this was at Taplow Court. His Lordship had what he called his 'luncheon cake'. Just an ordinary sort of fruit cake; just with sultanas, but it was his favourite cake. I think there was a little orange peel, if I remember correctly. And Her Ladyship, of course, used to come out to give the orders each day - great tall refined-looking woman she was I should 'think she was over six foot; charming person - and of course, I would have to make myself scarce because she was interviewing the head still-room maid but when the head still-room maid was on holiday I had to see Her Ladyship every day. So, of course, one day she came out and said, “Mollie”, she said, “We're so pleased that Kathleen” - that was the name of the head still-room maid - “has left sufficient cakes for His Lordship while she's on holiday.” So I thought, now's my chance. Of course, I was only seventeen, very cheeky, of course, and I said, "I beg your pardon, my lady,", So she said, "How nice it is," repeated herself, and I said, "No, my lady, I make those cakes. Not Kathleen." "Good gracious," she said, "All this-time?" So, of course, when the head still-room maid came back she was furious but she had to come to Panshanger to see if Miss Willard could teach her to make cakes. But she was one of those unlucky people. She could not make cakes. The scones you could play football with, you know. But I'd got so fed up, Simon with doing it and not getting any praise, so I thought now’s my chance to say something. Of course, my life was very bad after that, believe me. Oh dear, dear, dear. I couldn't do anything right with the head still-room maid after that.

ST: So you didn't get a rise then?

MW: Oh no, no, no. Didn't want a rise. I only had one rise the whole time I was there. I think I started - I can't remember. It was £20 I started (on) and I think eventually when I left it was £24.

ST: So when you started there you were paid £20 a year and did you have any bonuses or anything else?

MW: No, no. The only bonus that we got really was, of course, quite unknown to Lord and Lady Desborough but when they were away and we were left on our board wages of 14s. a week, what we had in the still-room, say butter, milk, all that sort of thing which the kitchen people didn't have, they used to give us food , you see. We used to sort of swap cakes and we'd have whatever food they were cooking. And that helped us really because even in those days it (the 14s.) didn't go anywhere.

ST: So when the family went away on holiday or to visit you were left in the house on board wages. Were they away much?

MW: Oh yes, they used to go away quite a lot. Oh yes, used to go up to Scotland and all sorts of things, you know.

ST: Was that predictable, when they went away?

MW: Oh, we used to know well in advance when they were going.

ST: It must have been difficult to calculate how much you'd earn and suddenly you'd be on reduced wages.

MW: Oh,yes, that's right. But, actually, the wage itself wasn't reduced, you see, but that's how we used to have to keep ourselves , but that's when we really a bit lucky. Well, I say it wasn't reduced but the laundry and that was knocked down which we had to pay for ourselves, you see. But the wages, I think we were knocked down a little bit. I think it used to be, where I was £20, I think if I

remember right, it would be about £18, and no laundry money allowed because we were on board wages. And that was the only way I could do.

ST: So you had your wage and that was paid weekly?

MW: Monthly

ST: Monthly. A weekly wage and on top of that you had allowance, did you, for laundry?

MW: Yes, for laundry.

ST: But not for food?

MW: No, no food. Not while they were in residence we didn't.

ST: That was all free. And when they went away they gave you extra ….

MW: That's right.

ST: This 14s. a week to pay for your food.

MW: Yes, but we had to pay our own laundry during this time.

ST: So you did have to payout a bit more than that.

MW: Oh_yes, yes. The wages were really very bad, of course, I mean several of us had a chance to go and work for - well, not me, especially, but the housemaids, I think it was, had a chance to go and work for – oh, .the Princess Royal, wasn't she? she was Princess Mary, wasn't she? And the wages was even worse. So, oh yes, they'd think you did it for the honour of it then, you see. But no, Desboroughs I wouldn't have cared. I mean, it was a beautiful place and beautiful people to work for. They were really. You weren't servants, at all. He used to call us all his 'girls', His Lordship did. We were all girls, except for the butler, you see, and the Odd Man. Otherwise the whole staff was girls. Oh yes, happy times we used to have in the servants hall. He used to go there and his girls used to sing to him. The old butler, he used to say his girls had wonderful voices and we used to have our own little….., Taplow Court more than Panshanger because it was Mrs Bruce at Panshanger, see. She was far more strict, having come from royalty.

ST: Did you have to buy your uniform with the money you were paid or was it given you?

MW: No, your uniform was provided for you.

ST: Was it? And can you describe that?

MW: Oh dear. It was an ugly thing, the uniform, if I remember it rightly. I think it was a sort of bluey material with white sort of - well, I'd call them butcher's aprons, now; you know, big white aprons and a plain sort of hat. But in the afternoon we used to have a frilly apron and a sort of darkish blue. The parlour maids were in black and, um, a frilly apron and a frilly sort of cap, in the afternoons.

ST: And you used to have to wear that in the kitchen.

MW: Oh yes, in the still-room, yes. The kitchens were the same and the housemaids were the same. It was only the parlour-maids that were different, except for the head housemaid and she wore a different uniform.

ST: Surely, if it was a dark colour, it must have got very dirty with the flour and the baking?

MW: Oh yes, that's why we used to have to change it every other day.

ST: So you changed your uniform every other day.

MW: Yes, you had to have clean aprons and caps. The dresses didn't used to get too bad. No, they never got too bad, at all.

ST: So you changed at lunchtime or after lunch into the afternoon attire and did you have to change again in the evening?

MW: No, no, no. Only twice a day we changed. We had our morning uniform and then we had the afternoon uniform; no, we didn't.

ST: And so, 'in the evening you wore …..

MW: Well, the same as in the afternoon, you see, because none of the gentry to be quite truthful, none of the gentry ever saw us in the kitchen or the housemaids or the still-room maids. The only people they saw were the parlour-maids and the butler, you see.

ST: And their uniforms were different?

MW: Oh yes, yes. The parlour-maids wore lovely sort of frilly caps and frilly aprons and they wore black in the afternoons and, I forget what coloux they wore in the mornings but it was always black in the afternoons.

ST: And the butler?

MW: And the butler, well, of course, he was dressed like butlers are today, you know, bow tie and black sort of suit.

ST: Did they have any other livery? Sometimes you see these lovely striped waistcoats.

MW: No, no, they had nothing like that. No, nothing at all. Of course, they used to go out and entertain, you know. I think his Lordship had to be in his livery when he used to have to be Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard. But we never, ever saw him.

ST: How long was your working day then?

MW: Well, we'd be up, start work probably about 6, normally, but when there was entertainment, of course, we used to be up at half-past-five. Especially at Panshanger, not so much at Taplow Court. But Panshanger, having no gas or electricity, we used to have, these great copper kettles, we used to have to boil, you see, and when Winston Churchill came he expected a tray at 6 o'clock in the morning with tea and prunes or whatever, so,we used to have to be up very early.

ST: And you finished work in late afternoon?

MW: Yes,yes, usually. We were responsible just for the coffee cups, you see, and if, there was no entertaining then you got them out fairly early into the still-room. Because we were responsible for the coffee and the dessert. But if they were entertaining, then, of course, as I said to you, they'd go on talking and sometimes perhaps it'd be 11 o'clock before we went to bed. It was a long day.

ST: And, if, the family were in residence, were you working most days?

MW: Oh yes. Every other day we were off duty. Say today, for instance, we'd be off Wednesday afternoon, right? Then be off again Friday afternoon.

ST: So, you had an afternoon off every other day. And, presumably, you prepared for that by baking more the previous day or in the morning.

MW: Well, no. There was always the head still-room maid left behind or I was left behind, you see. When she was off duty then I was on duty. No, there was never any question of having to do the cooking before. It was the same in the kitchen, you see.

ST: And how about the weekends?

MW: Yes, well, the weekends were the same, you see. Now, ,we'd be off Fridays, say; then we wouldn't be off Saturday but we'd be off Sunday morning. We were expected to go to church, obviously, but there was still a break, you see, and then we'd be off again on Monday afternoon.

So, really, it wasn't hard work at all.

ST: When you went to church, would you have been in uniform?

MW: No,oh no, no.

ST: You wore your best.

MW: No, all just our own clothes. We used to go more at Panshanger, to Hertingfordbury, of course. The Cowpers were all buried in there, but at Taplow Court we didn't go to church quite so much.

ST: Where did you sit when you were in church?

MW: Oh, just at the back. Not in the Desborough pews, no. (laughs) No, just sat anywhere in the church.

ST: And, 'of course, the Desboroughs expected to see you there?

MW: Oh yes, yes. And, of course, we used to be taken down by car sometimes. Oh, yes, Her Ladyship would always expect us to go to church, when we were at Panshanger anyway. But, to be honest, that's all there was to do anyway. You couldn't walk into Hertford; not on a Sunday in

Hertford; there'd be nothing at all. So we were glad to really go to church.

ST: Yes. O.K. Now, just recapping and talking a bit more about one of your days. You got up at 6 o'clock in the morning and your room, of course, was in the house. What did your room look like? 'Was it well-furnished? And comfortable?

MW: Oh yes. Very well-furnished and very well comfortable.

ST: Can you remember what it looked like?

MW: Yes, I can. We had lovely carpet on it. And there was a washstand. I can remember that, with a basin and water which, of course, you always had in those days. There was no such thing as basin in your room, you see. And there was the two beds and there was two chairs at Panshanger and there was three windows there and we looked right out on to the front, as I showed you. Taplow Court, it was much smaller. It just had the one bed; the room to myself. More like a little alcove bedroom, you know, but quite pleasant and the washbasin again and chairs. Every comfort, Simon.

ST: But you had to share your room at Panshanger?

MW: I did at Panshanger, yes; you always shared it with the kitchen-maid. Of course, we went to school together so that was quite pleasant.

ST: Oh, you got on well?

MW: We're still friends now. She's lost her husband but we've been to school since we started at five years old and she came to Desboroughs.

ST: That could have been very risky, couldn't it? 'Cos you may have been sharing with someone you didn't like.

MW: Yes, yes. But no. Lena she was and she used to …. In fact, she was really the cook when they didn't entertain, you see. They called them the head kitchen-maids. They never sort of had a resident cook. They used to have a special cook in that did all the dinners when they were entertaining. This cook used to come from London.

ST:. Yes, yes. O.K. So you got up very early. How did you manage to get up? Did you have an alarm or early morning call?

MW: Yes, of course we did. We had an alarm. Some mornings, of course, it was a job to get up, 'specially after parties. I remember many times you used to have to sluice your face to wake yourself up. Oh no, we had our own alarm for getting up.

ST: Did you ever used to oversleep?

MW: Yes, sometimes, and we used to get really told off about it but another time, of course, when we were off duty and the weather was bad and we couldn't get out, we had one of these great big old gramophones, you know, with a huge horn, and I always remember it, we used to have these records on and the lady's maid, she was Miss Gaston. I always remember that, she was French and she used to come along and bang on our doors and say, "Stop that noise at once. I'll report you to her Ladyship." So, of course, that didn't do any good so we had to stop it. And I always remember, too, that ?????? Miss Gaston, she used to say to us, 'cos we didn't have a lot of money, as I've told you before, we used to go out with our stockings, those we had washed and they were damp, and so was the gloves, we wore gloves in those days, and they were damp and she used to say to us, wag her finger at us and she'd say, "You will remember me when you get older. You will be crippled with rheumatism." She said, "Now, I tell you truthfully, you will remember me," and, my goodness, I've often thought about her - when I've got all this lot now! Mm! Nice old soul she was. For a time we had, after she'd gone, we had Princess Marina's lady's maid came.

ST: So you went downstairs, what? - about six fifteen or whatever? And what was your first task then?

MW: Getting the kettles on and getting them on the boil.

ST: Would the stoves already have been lit?

MW: Oh no, no, no. We used to have to light our own stoves.

ST: You had to light the stoves?

MW: Used to have to clean our own flues, too. Well, I did, being the under-maid, you see. Oh yes. No, no. We had to light them and get them going, you see. That's why we had to be up so early.

ST: So, the first task was to get the kettles on. And that was for breakfast.

MW: Oh, that was for breakfast. We used to have to do the break trays ... morning trays was the first task.

ST: You say 'morning trays'; that'd be....

MW: Early morning tea.

ST: And where would that be taken?

MW: Well, the house-maids, and that, take them to her ladyship and all those people you see.

ST: To their bedrooms?

MW: Oh yes. To their bedrooms. Yes, yes. Either that or the parlour-maids, you see. One or the other would take those. But we just had to prepare them. When it was party time there used to be a great big trestle table right along the passages with all these morning trays.

ST: Do you remember what you used to give them?

MW: Well, I don't think they had anything, Simon, except tea. And lemon juice they used to like, you know. Lemon juice in the morning, water with lemon in it.

ST: Really? Really?

MW: Oh yes. Her Ladyship had that every morning and every evening. A glass of warm water with lemon in it.

ST: What, a dash of lemon squeezed in to it?

MW: No, a slice of lemon.

ST: So it was just a glass of water with a slice of lemon?

MW: Yes, yes, before she had her tea and she used to have that again at night. A very healthy woman, too. It must have done her some good.

ST: And so she had one of those and a cup of tea?

MW: Yes, she had a lady's maid, you see, and they would take up the tray perhaps to the door and then the lady's maid would take it in and even Miss Imogen, she had a lady's maid, too. She used to be Miss Campbell. Her people used to live at - they were Scotch - Broadoak End. He used to work there, then.

ST: And so they didn't have anything to eat on that tray?

MW: No, no, no, no. That was just their morning tray.

ST: What time did they normally get that?

MW: Oh, usually about 8 o'clock. Eight to half-past, you see, so.

ST: And then the family after that came down for breakfast.

MW: They'd go to breakfast in the dining room. All we were responsible for was rolls, or whatever, scones or whatever, were done. Toast.

ST: So you'd have done that in the morning?

MW: Yes!

ST: So you'd done the kettles and then you'd have prepared scones, toast, that sort of thing.

MW: Yes, then, of course, we were finished again, then. Our life was a bit easy then 'cos all we had to do for lunch was the toast and the dessert and coffee. But the kitchen you see, that was their responsibility for the lunch and the same for the dinner. Really, our hardest job was the afternoon tea. That's what we had to prepare. We used to have to do the butter and everything for luncheon and for the dinner at night, as I've told you, all in fancy things, you know, like cottage loaves and daffodils and all that; we used to have to do it.

ST: So, the still-room was really responsible for doing the baking, the baking of breads, and pastries?

MW: Yes, that's right. No. No pastry. The kitchen used to do that.

ST: So, the still-room was involved with the bread making and cake making …..

MW: Yes, which in the end we didn't really have to make the bread, when we came to Panshanger we didn't. Because Rayments did that in Hertingfordbury. So we were responsible, really, if we made rolls, perhaps, but scones, you see. That we were more responsible for.

ST: And cakes?

MW: Oh yes. Oh, every cake was made on the premises. Oh yes. Sometimes fourteen or fifteen different varieties.

ST: Do you remember what your speciality was?

MW: Oh dear Lord, the different cakes we used to have to make! Great big piece of Genoese and then used to have to be iced and all cut into different shapes, hearts, squares, diamonds, you know all the different fancy cakes. And then she used to like, oh dear, ginger cake, and, oh, I can't remember, fruit cakes, of course, Madeira cakes, some …. sort of cake, began with a P - I can't think the name of it now - Parkin. Something like that. And if ever she went anywhere and they had a new cake or anything, she used to go and ask the chef for the recipe. Which meant that we had to make it, you see.

ST: What d'you mean by Genoese?

MW: That's plain cake, you see. Plain cake into a big piece and then you cut it and ice it into all these little fancy things.

ST: Iced. And so you were just really making the menu according to what the Desboroughs wanted?

MW: Oh yes, yes. Oh yes.

ST: You didn't have to come up with your own innovations?

MW: Oh no. No, no, no. Her Ladyship always knew what cakes she wanted. Oh yes. They were all different, the varieties. I can't remember them now but they were all different. The cakes she used to like were the fancy cakes but His Lordship's fruit cake, lunch cake, rather, was, you know,

just an ordinary cake.

ST: So the biggest problem, then, was the afternoon tea. That must have been very hectic. They started working on that directly after lunch, presumably.

MW: Well, no! We'd be cooking the cakes in the morning, you see, Simon, and then, of course, we'd start after lunch to prepare it, you see.

ST: And all cakes would be fresh, would they? That afternoon? You never kept anything for the next day?

MW: Oh no, no, no. They had to be fresh. No, no. Oh, I mean, if there was fruit cake, and that, obviously we kept it and put it in tins and things you know, but if there was parties, the majority of them would go very quickly.

ST: What happened to the food that was left over?

MW: Well, of course, the staff used to eat it, if you want the truth. We used to eat it. I mean, if you saw, Simon, now, the butler used to go with these great big trays - what we called the butler's trays – big wooden trays - and there'd be a whole ham on there (I'm just talking about breakfast), kedgeree, kippers, plaice, - fillet of plaice - boiled eggs, sausages. All that was for one breakfast. And, of course, when he came back we used to say, “Was there anything left?” and, if there was, we used to have it. That's why we were doing well but there wasn't an awful ………… except for my head still-room maid and she was very wasteful. Because we couldn't eat the cakes, couldn't eat the scones. They were all thrown out. The cowman used to fetch any waste, you see. Used to be given to the animals.

ST: It sounds as though the head still-room maid wasn't a very good cook.

MW: Oh, she was dreadful, dreadful. I only hope she never hears me say it but I've often thought of her during rationing times, believe me, because the waste there was shocking. I mean, even butter, she used to let it go 'til it was stagnant, you know, and green, and it was so stupid because she could have let us staff taken it home to our people. We'd have been willing to have bought it, you know, but, no, it was all wasted. And in the still-room at Taplow there used to be sort of - you let the lid down - where you threw all the waste, you see; oh, it used to be chock-a-block with scones as hard as bullets. You could have played cricket with it.

ST: Why did Lady Desborough tolerate it?

MW: God knows. I don't know. Well, she didn't know that Kathleen wasn't doing it, you see. No, I mean, I used to take the blame for it but even the butler, it was a standing joke. They used to throw them to each other, you know, for a joke. Oh yes, she was hopeless at cooking. I often wondered what became of her. But I couldn't stick it any longer and I left and Her Ladyship, as I think I said to you before, she got me a job at Sir Lionel and Lady Faudel Phillips at Balls Park and, of course, I didn't like it at all.

ST: Can you describe the still-room to me?

MW: My still-room?

ST: At Panshanger.

MW: At Panshanger, Yes, it was right on the front, the entrance, and it was a very, very nice still-room. It'd got lots of cupboards in it and different china, you see; though the best china wasn't there, of course; that was in the china room. And then you went in the door, I always remember, and that side there, of course, was the housekeeper's door, when we were at Panshanger, we weren't very happy at all because she was always in and out of it, you see. She'd been used to bossing and we resented it, because the old butler was charming to us, he really was, Mr. Barratt-Good, He was a very nice man. He was charming to us. And then we'd have this great big stove in the middle there. And there was huge passages at Panshanger. All stone passages; huge passages, there were. On the staff's part, you know.

ST: So the still-room had a big oven in it; a big range.

MW: Oh yes, very big range; a very big range.

ST: A central table of polished …..

MW: No, no, no. Wood.

ST: …. of wood which you scrubbed and it was probably a lovely white colour with lots of scrubbing ….

MW: Yes, yes, and the sink was that way, facing the window as well, you see.

ST: So you had a lot of light coming in?

MW: Oh yes, yes; it was a very pleasant place. And our own pantry for the still-room, as I told you, is in this current affair, you know, with these narrow windows right along the end of the passage.

ST: Your pantry?

MW: Our pantry where we used to have to keep our butter and everything.

ST: So that was attached to the still-room?

MW: Oh, that was what they called the still-room pantry.

ST: Was it attached to the still-room?

MW: No, no, no. It was further along the passage. Right along at the end of the passage, yes.

ST: And, it was lit with electric lights.

MW: Oh yes, we had electric lights. It was still a bit - I don't know if I can remember there was a light in that - I don't think there was a light in there. We used to have the light from the passage. It was only a small little pantry, you see; just sufficient for us to keep the butter and all that sort of thing in.

ST: And were you close to the kitchen?

MW: Well, the still-room would be here and down the passage a bit would be the kitchen; just towards the end of the passage would be the kitchen, which was a huge kitchen and then, of course, the kitchen-maids had their own sitting-room, right by the kitchen. We still-room maids didn't have our own sitting-room, not even the head still-room maid. But it was a very, very big kitchen. There was all ranges along one side and right along the other. Because, you see, they always had what they called a saucepan, a huge saucepan, a stock pot thing, you see, for the soup. Oh, there used to be chicken's feet in it, egg shells; you name it, it was all in it. But the soup that came out of it was gorgeous.

ST: So, towards the end of the day, after the tea then, then you were really off-duty.

MW: Yes, yes, we were because …. well, we had just this toast to do and the dessert and the coffee for the evening meal but our biggest time, as I said to you before, was this tea, you see. That was our hardest time, doing the tea.

ST: And in the evening you were left to your own devices.

MW: Oh yes, whoever was on duty, you see. There was always one or the other of us off duty. Whoever was on duty, it was quite easy, whenever there was no company. But, I mean, when there was any company ….

ST: Then you were working all day long.

MW: We were both on duty and we were working all day long and it was quite a hard time.

ST: So, in the mornings both of you would be on duty.

MW: Yes, yes.

ST: And in the afternoons just one of you?

MW: Yes.

ST: And by then, of course, you'd have done the baking for the afternoon in the morning.

MW: Oh yes, that was all done. You see, it wasn't just the baking, you see: she used to like …. she'd have …. huge currants they used to grow at Taplow Court, red currants. Now, she always wanted those glazed, so we used to have to have the whites of an egg and castor sugar and let them harden and she did the same with some of her grapes, you see, so a minute didn't consist of just that; it did all these fancy things and when the strawberry season was on, Simon, we used to have to do them in pyramids, you know, with little bits of leaves sticking out and pyramid the strawberries right up, it was very interesting.

ST: and did you have to do the same on Sunday?

MW: Oh yes yes

ST: of course…………………..

End of side A

Side B

MW: That’s right it was very easy on a Sunday..…. when Her Ladyship and His Lordship were on their own they had most simple food. His Lordship's favourite used to be rabbit pie and sometimes Her Ladyship would have a boiled egg. They were no trouble at all when they were on their own. But we liked it when they entertained because it was, you know, sometimes monotonous if you hadn't got a lot to do. Not only that, we used to see all these different people which was quite exciting. At Panshanger you used to see them better than at Taplow Court. We didn't see them at Taplow Court so much, not unless they came to feed the donkeys. And then they had to come into the still-room to get the food for them. And at Panshanger, of course, they used to do bowling in an alley they had, and then they'd come into us in the still-room. We kept the key, you see. That's when we saw them at Panshanger. And we'd also see them arrive at Panshanger. They used to come right by the still-room.

Transcriber’s Note: Key to the bowling alley was kept in the still room.

ST: Yes, yes; also, of course, the leftovers wouldn't have been so good, would they?

MW: Oh no, not when they're on their own. Oh no, no, no, no.

ST: O.K. Shall we move on to your free time, now? You've been talking about what you did when you were at work. And you obviously had quite a bit of free time.

MW: We did

ST: You had every other afternoon off, some time at the weekend.

MW: Yes. We used to have to be in by 10 o'clock, see.

ST: In where? In the house?

MW: In the house by 10 o'clock.

ST: So you could go out of the house? You could go off into Hertford?

MW: Well, yes, when we were at Hertford. Of course, when we were at home at Taplow we used to go home to my parents. Well, my mother married again. Yes, and so did my friend. She lived in the same place as me, so we use to go home.

ST: Were you able to give any of the perks, the leftovers, to your parents?

MW: Well, this is what used to make us so angry because we said we could have brought butter for our parents, you see. But we weren't allowed to buy butter. When they' had a party and they had these huge joints of beef, then the dripping was gorgeous. We were allowed to buy the dripping. Oh, I forget how much it was, now. Very, very cheap but it was beautiful dripping. We were allowed to buy that. But, no, she used to make us angry, you see because we could have taken many things home to our parents because neither of the parents were really well off, so – but the head still-room maid, no, she never did let us do that.

ST: Did you ever used to have any clothes handed down or …. ?

MW: No, no, no, no. Nothing like that. No. Oh no. Nothing like that at all. We had to buy all our own. Every time Miss Imogen was a bridesmaid she would dress up in her bridesmaid's clothes, even to the bridegroom's gift, and we used to have to all go straight through to the drawing room to see her, you see, every time. That's how, really, they involved us so much. It's more like a family, really, His Lordship was. 'Cos our ground, you see., at Taplow Court joined on to Lord Astor's. A big board which said 'This ends Lord Desborough's estate and starts Lord Astor's', so …. yes, we used to go to Lord Astor's to staff dances and they came to us.

ST: We must talk about those a bit in a minute. But, you had your time off and you'd go off into Hertford if you were at Panshanger? ….

MW: Oh yes, we always came to Hertford.

ST: How did you get into Hertford?

MW: Walk.

ST: You walked?

MW: Yes, walked there and back.

ST: How long did that take you?

MW: Oh, gosh, I can't remember, Simon, but it was a long, long way, 'cos, you remember, you wouldn't think so today, would you? …. but, as you left the lodge, which was called North Lodge, then we didn't see another thing 'til we got to the North station. And we hadn't got a lot of money. You couldn't afford …. only if we were in Hertford in the evenings I was terrified, I really was and I said, "No, I'm not going back there; I'm not," and we used to scrape round for the money to buy a taxi from the North station. It used to be taxis in those days.

ST: 'Cos it's a long walk along?

MW: Oh, it was a long way. But it was frightening.

ST: It must have taken you an hour to walk?

MW: Yes, quite that, quite that.

ST: So if you had to be back at 10 o'clock you'd have had to have left Hertford at 9.

MW: And you couldn't pick boyfriends up here, you see, 'cos if we were at dances and that, "Oh, where do you come from?" "Panshanger" (Ha-Ha) "Good night!" 'Cos it was too far, you see, from Hertford, they won't …. We used to go to St, Nicholas' Hall dances and, no, we used to have to walk and that's when I used to say I was terrified. I was really frightened of the dark. It was all right if there was two or three of us but if it was only just my friend and I, you know, that was in the kitchen, it was, it was really frightening. But, oh we used to visit all the cafés here.

ST: Did you? The cafés? The pubs as well?

MW: Now, you know where Lloyds Bank……..no Barclays Bank is now, there used to be a big café there called the A.1. Restaurant. Farrows* used to own it. Then we used to go opposite where now is Creasey's. That was called, oh dear, Salvation Army man ran that. That was another café we visited, and then there was another one ….

Transcribers Note: re. Farrows see recordings by Thora Blake née Farrow.

Transcribers Note: This description is of when the banks were in Fore Street, the restaurant run by the salvation army man was probably the Thistledoo on the corner of Market Street.

ST: This was in the evenings, was it?

MW: No, afternoons, for tea. And, now, the one in Fore Street …. you know where the …. Bradford & Bingleys have got it now, in the main front (??????). The restaurant there was called Mrs. Swan and you had to go upstairs to it. Then we used to go to another one and it used to be owned by …. oh, I can't think of the name. They were French - and we used to go there to tea.

Transcriber’s note: Bradford and Bingley was on the corner of Market Place opposite the Shire Hall. The french restaurant was possibly Maison Carton on Parliament Square.

ST: And were you in Hertford as well in the evenings?

MW: Yes. Well, as I say, when we came in in the evenings we only ever came in to a dance, you know, or perhaps go to the …. used to be called Castle Cinema. I remember there was a woman there, used to call her Madam Bridal Lake. She'd stand on a soapbox and sing 'Ramona'. Of course, we were very naughty, Simon, we used to laugh and take the mickey. We were asked to leave one night. But that was our life. That was very amusing to us.

ST: And were the dances good?

MW: Oh yes, you know, as dances went, yes. But, as I say, it was the journey home. Nobody would take us home because it was too far. No chap wasn't going to walk to Panshanger. It used to be, "Oh, good night" and that was it. So we used to have to try and save up and sometimes we were broke, to be honest, we really were. We used to borrow money from my brother. She borrowed from her brother, and then at the end of the month when we were hoping to get money, of course, we owed it. But no, it was such a way …. very, very long journey to walk from Panshanger to Hertford.

ST: I suppose you could have caught the train.

MW: No, no you couldn't. It means you have to go to Cole Green to get it and that was right way out, right way out, yes. In fact, the drive down from the house to Cole Green Drive, as it was always called, was even worse than the North lodge one, because that was the shortest, to get to that. You couldn't see the house through the trees but it was, you know, not anywhere near as bad as the Hertingfordbury Drive and the Cole Green one. No, there was no buses, you see. And then they started buses, funnily enough, twice a week it was, funnily enough. Mr. Thurgood started that, from Ware, and my second son ends up by marrying his youngest daughter. It's a funny world, isn't it? He started the buses. Twice a week they used to run them, which, of course, was a blessing. But sometimes, of course, I don't think they ran very late in the evening so we used to get the bus home early. So we used to be in long before 10, but we used to amuse ourselves, you know.

ST: Were you ever back late?

MW: Sometimes, and we used to get reprimanded.

ST: Who caught you?

MW: Housekeeper. She used to catch me with everything. I was a very bad person for breaking things, very, very bad, or unlucky, I don't know, or careless let's say. One or the other. And I never broke anything that wasn't expensive. And, of course, when she came, dear old Miss Willard, the housekeeper, she used to hide it; never let Her Ladyship know. Wonderful woman she was. But, of course, when Mrs. Bruce came, it was a different cup of tea, having come from the Duke & Duchess of York, and she said to me, she said, “oh I remember.” I was coming through the courtyard and she'd this great rake and she was raking over this huge ash place where they kept all the ashes, you know, and all sort of bricked in, and she was raking over there and I said, "Mrs. Bruce," and she said, "Yes," and I said, "You're wasting your time." I said, "I haven't broken anything today," I said. "Nor yesterday," I thought she was going to hit me with the rake but she was very angry but in the end she did report me to Her Ladyship. And Her Ladyship came out to the still-room and she said to me, "Mollie, now I want to speak to you.” And I said, "Yes, my Lady." So she said, "You are really breaking some very, very valuable. things. Tell me, Mollie, how do you break them? What happens?" She said, "Do you have anything drop on them?" "Oh no, my lady," I said, "I just drop 'em." Oh dear, she changed completely. She said, "This dropping must cease. If it doesn't I shall take it out of your wages." So, that put a stop to me. I was extra careful. But it all made my life Simon, it really did. It was the same with the valets. I mean, one day we had …. his name was, er …. he was Lord David Cecil's valet and we used to call him Fairy. I always remember the younger parlour maid, well, she wasn't young like, sort of grown woman, and she rather fancied him, you see, and she said, "Oh, Fairy, would you like a tray of tea in the morning?" He said, "Well, yes, Kate, that would be very nice," which had to come from the still-room, you see. So we smiled and I said - I didn't dare let the head still-room maid know but I put some Epsom Salts in it. (laughs) And, of course, he was on the toilet the whole time. So, I never said anything except to the other three girls who, we were all four little devils to be actual, you know, making all sorts of naughtiness and mischief. So I told them about it. So, anyway, Fairy came again. Again Kate said, "Would you like to try again Fairy"? He said, "No thank you, Kate." So she said, "Oh, why?” He said, "Well," he said, "I didn't like the Epsom Salts in my tea." (laughs) He knew what had happened. "And," he said, "I've got a good idea who put it there." Which was me, of course; oh, we used to play apple-pie beds and all sorts of things.

ST: What was an apple-pie bed?

MW: Well you to do the sheet all twisted so that when they get in they have to lie like this. Oh yes, it was the only amusement we had, to be honest.

ST: So I suppose When …. you obviously had the same, the same families visiting the Desboroughs and you must have known their valets and the people attached to those families?

MW: Oh yes, yes, we did.

ST: So, so-and-so would be coming back and you wouldn't be thinking about ??????

MW: But she didn't always have the same guests, of course. They were all different but each time, of course, we knew them all. There was only one that was never the same and that was Sir Winston Churchill's. He never had the same valet the second time running. Never. They couldn't stand him, I don't think, because he used to get very angry and anyone into his room he'd throw books at them and all sorts of things. No, he had a different valet every time he came.

But when he came to Panshanger, you see, they would bring him in on the motor bikes, you know, the police, and see him through. And then he'd also got his own detective, his own secretary, his own valet, and his own chauffeur. So he had quite a big few and then, of course, Lady Churchill, well, I don't think they were …. they were Mrs. Churchill then, weren't they? 'Cos he wasn't always Sir Winston, was he? And, she would have her own lady's maid. But, no, he was an old rascal. He never had the same one. But a very clever man, though, Very nice man. He used to smoke those huge cigars, huge ones, they were. 'Cos my friend went, well, we knew her from Panshanger. She was the head housemaid at Panshanger and then she went to Winston Churchill as housemaid and during the war she was with him and one day she brought one of his cigars over for my husband.

Not that my husband smoked it but he kept it for a souvenir for a long, long time. But, they were very kind to her. They used to use, share the same air-raid shelter as what they did.

ST: So Winston Churchill used to visit quite regularly.

MW: Oh yes. He was really quite a good regular visitor, he was. Then, we used to have the Duke and Duchess of Devonshire. Oh, good lord, the Salisburys used to come from Hatfield House and they, of course, used to go there. Marquess of Cholmondley. Oh dear, at Taplow Court we had Sir James Barrie, Captain Bradshaw. Course, Sir James Barrie had got the tiniest little feet, 'cos their shoes used to be put outside the still-room, you see. There was a place where all the shoes had to go after the odd man had cleaned them and so we used to see them. And he had the most tiny little feet and Captain Bradshaw had got huge ones. And we used to measure them and keep them locked up for a souvenir, you know. But we saw Sir James Barrie. Used to write beautiful poetry for her Ladyship after she'd lost her third son and there was what they called the Bapsey Walk. There was a monument to them and there was this poem that Sir James Barrie had done …. That was at Taplow. Yes, it was a lovely life.

ST: So, you had a lot of free time and you were playing the valets up something rotten ….

MW: Oh yes, we always did ….

ST: and there was four of you ….

MW: Yes, us four friends.

ST: …. and you used to be ….

MW: …. the ringleader.

ST: And you four used to go out to Hertford together, did you?

MW: Yes, we did. We always went together.

ST: And Hertford was, I suppose, the only place you could go.

MW: Oh yes, 'cos there was nowhere else to go. We used to go to Tewin dances, of course. Her Ladyship used to let the car take us then. The chauffeur used to take us for he'd go to the dance as well, you see. Well, he was a groom, actually. And that used to make it nice and easy but we never

used to have the car to go into Hertford.

ST: And the Desboroughs also provided some entertainment as well, didn't they, for their staff?

MW: Well, we used to have what they called the staff ball once a year, you see, and that was very, very nice indeed, I think we had one at Panshanger, for the picture gallery there was fantastic at Panshanger. Oh, it was out of this world. It was really wonderful. Huge long room with all these gorgeous pictures. But very valuable pictures because just before I went there, apparently, she'd sold the Madonna & Child and that was very valuable. And we used to have this staff ball and it didn't matter what visitors were there His Lordship would expect them to dance with us. Didn't matter who it was. Lord Astor's done the same, you see.

ST: And, at the staff ball did he, the Desboroughs, invite lots of their friends to come?

MW: Oh yes, if there was friends staying there, you see, then' they'd come in and join and that and they were expected to dance with us. But they usually arranged it that they were free from company.

ST: And were the servants invited from other large houses in the neighbourhood?

MW: No, no, no. They weren't, although when we were at Taplow Court we used to go to Astor's staff and then Astor's staff used to come to us. But not at Panshanger, no.

ST: So, at one of these staff balls, how many people would be there?

MW: Well, the whole of us, there were seventeen of us in staff, you see, and, of course, if there was visitors, there'd be those. But at Taplow Court …. we only had the one down here, I think, at Panshanger, they were mostly at Taplow Court. And we used to have to have fancy dress. His Lordship liked us to have fancy dress.

ST: So you dressed up?

MW: Oh yes, we made our own costumes. Yes. One year, my friend and I, the one from the kitchen, we went as Oxford and Cambridge and we used to have to go through, like we did to see Miss Imogen, we used to have to go through to the drawing room and show them all our costumes. And His Lordship said, "What are you?" So I said, “Oxford and Cambridge, my Lord." "Huh!" he said. "You want some oars." So he sent the odd man down to the boat house and we had to carry these blooming oars with us, you know, to finish off. So human they were really, they really were. Another, another time, we were making Spanish costumes - I went as a Spanish lady and my friend went as a Spanish man. We won the prize, actually. And Lady Gage came in and she said …. well, she was Miss Imogen then, and she came in from riding and she said, "Oh Mollie, what are you doing?" I said, "Making a Spanish hat, Miss." And she put it on and said, "Oh, I think that'll be good." You know, just treated you like one of them.

ST: And how did the form of one of these balls take? There was a band, presumably, playing?

MW: Oh yes.

ST: And they were playing contemporary music, music of the time?

MW: Yes, some of the old dances were, in those days, of course (??????)

ST: Or would it have been more classical, with Viennese waltzes and ….

MW: No, no, no, no. no. The waltz, foxtrot and the two-step, you know, the quick step. Oh no.

ST: So they must have got some musicians in ….

MW: I mean, when they went to Balls Park they did the Gay Gordons and all that sort of thing but, no, we didn't.

ST: So they must have arranged for some musicians to come in to play.

MW: Oh yes. Oh yes. They engaged the band for us.

ST: And what about the spread? Was there lots of food?

MW: Oh yes, lovely food.

ST: …. and drinks? You must have had to prepare it?

MW: No, no, we didn't. No, they used to have caterers in for us. We never had to prepare that. No, no, we didn't, no, and the Astors were the same so, no, no. It was our evening and they let it be as such, you know.

ST: So they brought in the caterers and the band they supplied. And did the have a bar, with drinks?

MW: No, no, no, no. There was no drinks. Only lemonade and that sort of thing. No, no, no, there was nothing like that but we didn't mind. We didn't drink anyway in those days.

ST: Apart from the butler.

MW: Well, I suppose he did, behind the doors but, no, there was no alcohol. But we never drank alcohol in those days. I mean, in whatever dances we came to Hertford we never drank. It was only ever lemonade or orangeade, you know.

ST: So there wasn't, there wasn't a sort of, there wasn't bottles of wine being passed around amongst the staff?

MW: No, no, no, no. It was just a staff dance, you know.

ST: You must have known people, though, who, the butler for example, who may have enjoyed tapping the cellar a bit.

MW: Oh yes, he used to like a little drop. We used to see by his red nose. Oh dear, yes, many a time he used to get cross with me because he said I was cheeky. The time we was snowed-up. I dressed up as a telegram old man delivering telegrams, because we had our own telegram forms, obviously, the Desboroughs, you see, for when they wanted to send a telegram, and I showed him this envelope and he said, "Oh, how you've braved it. You've got through this!" and I said, "Aye, aye, aye, I have.” And put this sort of talk on, oh dear, and then he found out it was me. I couldn't stop giggling. He was furious. He didn't think it was funny at all. I said, "I only done it, Mr. Good, just for a joke" I said, "That was all.” "You must think you're mad," he said. "I don't know. I get fed up with you." Every time I done something wrong I used to give my notice in. At Taplow Court we had what they called Bapsey Pond. Years ago they used to be baptized in it and we used to have a pathway with a gate, you see, which was a short cut to get through to Maidenhead, at the top of Bapsey Hill. And, of course, I came in this day and forgot to shut the gate, my friend and I did, so, of course, we let the cow out and the donkey. Oh, my goodness, did we get into some hot water! I gave my notice in but, of course, after he'd calmed down, he didn't accept it. But we were frightened to death. Yes, we used to go skating on this Bapsey Pond.

ST: Who would you have given your notice in to? The butler?

MW: Yes, the butler. I remember once I gave it in at Panshanger. But we were never there long enough, anyway, not at Panshanger. Never there more than six weeks.

ST: So was the butler the most senior position? Above the housekeeper?

MW: Oh yes, yes. Well, we never had a housekeeper at Taplow Court, you see. When we were at Panshanger she was the boss, as I said to you, Mrs. Bruce, the housekeeper.

ST: Because the butler didn't go to Panshanger?

MW: No, no, no. But Mr. Barratt-Good was the boss at Taplow Court.

ST: Did the housekeeper stay in Panshanger all the time?

MW: Yes, until she left to go to Windsor Castle.

ST: So she didn't go with the staff back to Taplow?

MW: No; no, no, no. She was here. She had to be here and she had a staff here, you know, a skeleton staff. And the Estate Agent who was here was Mr. Wheatley from Cole Green.

ST: So the housekeeper must have organised the cellar, then - the wines.

MW: Well, I don't know whether she did that now. I don't remember whether it was all organised by Mr. Barratt-Good before they sort of came down, you know. I don't know. At Taplow Court he did the cellars and that. But here we had no cellars at Panshanger, so I think that was all done or I should have remembered.

ST: So the wine, etc. came with you with the luggage from Taplow.

MW: I can't really remember - I suppose they drank a lot of wine. I can't remember that they did. But they must have done, in those days, same as they do today.

ST: And, um, one other thing I wasn't clear of was the food and supplies. Would that have been bought in or was it grown or ….

MW: No, we used to buy these up here, when we came here. There used to be Scales at the butcher's shop. Now, you know St. Andrew Street, Where the church is, don't you? Well, you know there's all flats there now isn't there? Well, there used to be a very big house* there - I can't think of the name of it. Sister Lacey would remember it. And a butcher shop at the side of it, very high class butcher's shop. Mr. Norris use to be the man and, oh dear, you'd think he was a bit of gentry himself, you know, but he was the manager. We used to get all our meat there. Then we'd come to Bates, the Egyptian shop in Fore Street, you know, which is now an Italian restaurant. Well, that used to be called Bate's, very high class grocers there and everything came from there. Then there was Brewster's, the fish shop. That all came from there. In those days we had no ice. Brewster's used to supply the ice. We used to come in from Panshanger to Hertford sometimes and somebody would want something, for the kitchen or something, doilies or something I had to get that day - no, the head still-room wanted some doilies and when we came in from Panshanger - because, I mean, we hadn't got really, a lot of posh clothes, as you can imagine. So we walked into, it is only naughtiness, walked into Bates Brothers (Fore Street) and this day this old man came up and, you know, there was no bowing and scraping, and he, said, "Oh yes what would you like?" and I said, "Oh, we wanted some doilies. Three sets of different doilies." And, of course, he looked me up and down as much as.-to say, "She hasn't got money for doilies." So he said, "I don't know if we've got them." I said, "Oh, what a pity," I said. They were for Lady Desborough." "Oh, Lady Desborough!" he said. You'd never 'believe, Simon, the change in the man and, of course, we were thrilled to bits to have a giggle, you know, but, it was such a change in it. And I said, "There you are. That shows you." Oh yes, Lady Desborough! Anything for Lady Desborough. So we got the doilies. But I think if I'd have wanted them they'd have said they hadn't got them 'cos they thought we had''t got the money to pay for them. It was only done for devilment of course. But I always remember that old chap.

*Transcribers Note : Cawthorne 51 St Andrew Street - in 2014 a restaurant called The Ruby..

ST: So obviously the family was buying things in Hertford?

MW: Oh yes, they shopped in Hertford.

ST: Was anything grown at Panshanger?

MW: No, everything came from Taplow Court. All the vegetables and all the fruit. They grew nothing at Panshanger.

ST: But the gamekeepers probably provided a bit of game.

MW: Oh yes. Lord, yes. There was pheasants and rabbits. They used to bring them in on these great long poles, the rabbits. The game keeper used to bring them in and the pheasants, you see. And woodcock, all that sort of thing - partridge. Oh yes, they were all supplied. But, of course, you know, in those days they all had such friends and Lord Ayre, I think it was, lived in Scotland and they used to have whole salmon sent down for them, you know, ,and Miss Imogen - she was very friendly with Sir Philip Sassoon, used to live at Luton Hoo then, in those days, Sir Philip Sassoon. And they used to send these great boxes of Jaffa oranges, you know, a whole box of them, mm. Oh, it was a wonderful experience, it really was.

ST: Sounds as though you had a marvellous time.

MW: Oh, we did. It was hard when they were entertaining and we hadn't got much money but it was a very nice life. I enjoyed it, anyway, very much. People say about 'service', but it wasn’t service Simon. You were very lucky to get into a place like that. In fact, I don't think if I hadn't have been in the Girl Guides I would ever have got in.

ST: So you started in 1925 and you stayed until ?

MW: I stayed there about six to seven years and then I left.

ST: So until about 1932?

MW: That's right. No, less time than that because I was married in 1931 so I must have started there in 1921 or 22 and then I went to Balls Park after I left there and, as I say, I only stayed there a month. I didn't like it at all. I had a beautiful still-room, Simon, and the under housemaid used to have to call me with tea, where I used to have to call the head still-room maid with tea. But I was being treated like royalty and she used to have to bring me this tea and the hot water but, no, I couldn't cotton on to them at all. They were so mean with the cooking and things. I mean, this person who married Jocelyn Stevens, I remember making her a birthday cake once and she wouldn't even let me get any things to decorate it with, you know. And, no, I didn't like the atmosphere and, what was more, I did not like, and hadn't been used to, going in to the servants’ hall for my meals. I'd been there three days and living on my own cakes, to be honest, and cups of tea 'cos I just couldn't bring myself to go there, 'cos being a bit of a, oh, I suppose, devil, you'd call it, you know, full of life, oh, it was terrible, the housekeeper and that. You weren't allowed to speak or anything. In the end, of course, she came and said, "Look, you've got to come into the servants’ hall." So I said, "Well, there's no 'got to’ about it." So she said, "You can't go on living on your cakes." So, anyway, I plucked up courage, oh Lord, I'd only been there two days and I got sent out because I was speaking or something. I hated it. I was only there a month. Yet I had the most beautiful bedroom and a beautiful still-room. The still-room was my own. I remember Sir Lionel Faudel-Philips never drank tea or coffee. I used to have to make home-made lemonade for him and it always had to be put in the 'fridge. Always. It had to be ice-cold for him to drink. I used to think he was a bit of a cissy, I did, really. But, er, no. And yet she came from very good stock. She came from the Richmond and Gordons. But the china they'd got there was out of this world. Far better than at Desboroughs, Desboroughs had the pictures but Balls Park had the china. Course, Queen Mary used to make many visits here. Pretty obvious she had her eye on something. They had one set. It was called the Napoleon set. It was plain white with a huge gold N in the middle. Gorgeous it was.

ST: Why did you leave Panshanger?

MW: Well, because I was fed up with the head still-room maid. You see, I wasn't getting anywhere and I said to her Ladyship, "Look, I can't stay, my lady, because," I said, "Katherine's never going to leave." Huge, fat person. She had a boyfriend and, I said, "No, there's no hopes whatever of her ever going." So, I wanted to get out and get on, you see, and that's how she got me this position and then from there, of course, I went to …. I didn't want to leave Hertford because my boyfriend at that time lived in Castle Street, next to Captain Cannon, Ken. I wanted to be here to be near him, see. So from there I went to Brickendonbury. It was a Mr. & Mrs. Gillam who kept the place there and, there again, of course, they didn't have a still-room - had a kitchen and that - but I used to go in the kitchen and sort of make cakes and things like that but I had to do lots of other things as well - cleaning and that - what I hadn't been used to. So I didn't stick that too long, From there I went to Mr. Moore. He was an architect, I think. Mutton Close, where Dr. Mortis lives now, along Morgans Road, isn't it? And from there, of course, I went back home. I couldn't stick that either so I went back home. And then, of course, we got married in the December. Then I came back to Hertford to live; that was in 1931, or 1930, I think; 1930, 'cos my son was born. I had my first child ten months to the day. So he was born in 1931.

ST: Well, that's absolutely fascinating.

MW: And, of course, when we went to Mrs. Dillons, you see, of course, having been in the habit of saying, "Yes, my lady; no, my lady," I couldn't get out of it and I think it made the old girl's day, you know, to think she was being called 'my lady'. But they were very, very generous. They were not what we called 'society class', you know. They weren't! But everything there was, pretty food and everything but she had a butler there and there was a big burglary while I was there and they reckoned that it had been done from the inside. She never wanted any references, you see, and I said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I've got a reference from Lady Desborough." Which I had - a very good reference. "Well," she said, "As you've got it I'll have it, but," she said, "We don't bother." Which was wrong. She had an old butler there and he used to go through to the dining-room and we'd be in the, it wasn't a servants hall, the steward's room, they called it, waiting for our meal and he'd be gone ever such a long time and when he'd come through I used to say to him, "I don't know if you are a real butler." He said, "What do you mean by that?" I said, "But, butlers don't act like that." Oh, he was furious. But we always said we reckoned he was the cause of some of the burglary that was there. She never ever did ask for a reference. We were all interviewed by the police and everything but, of course, they knew my young man and that was it. I was all right. But he was to do with tobacco. Imperial Tobaccos. He was a very nice man, a director. And she was a very generous person. But not Society people.

ST: Which house was that?

MW: Brickendonbury. They used to rent it from the Pearsons'.

ST: Oh well, I'll turn off the tape now. Thank you very much for talking to me.

END